Kevin Marshall's America
Protestors opposed to the planned Mosque often adopt stances and attitude in direct contradiction to the values this country preaches (Photo credit: Associated Press)
I held off on writing about this issue knowing how heated it was, let alone some of the reaction I’ve seen on the TU blogosphere from far less controversial (and far more pedestrian) affairs.
For those of you that may have been comatose for the past couple months (by the way congratulations to you and your family on your sudden and miraculous recovery), the hot topic has been what the media has coined the “Ground Zero Mosque”: a planned Community Center two blocks away from the former site of the Twin Towers that includes a prayer room for Muslims.
Then, just last week, a poll came out that revealed one in five Americans believe Barack Obama is a Muslim.
There is an intrinsic relationship between the two, and it is this: despite insistence to the contrary, many people are still unable to separate Muslims from the violent radical fundamentalists that perpetuate terror and are responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. So much so, in fact, that even the invocation of the term “Muslim” is done with negative, accusatory, and fearful connotations.
This is a very serious problem.
There are no shortage of politicians and media figures that are more than happy to stir the pot, because encouraging hate and bias under the veil of concern for the victims families leads to big ratings and big poll numbers. But can we blame them? No, not really. That’d be ignoring our own shortcomings. They can be faulted, perhaps, for exploiting a pre-existing fear and bias towards Muslims. It is, however, merely a reaction to a pre-existing condition.
Even those rallying in favor of the Mosque show some degree of hesitancy and are overly apologetic. One of the most common arguments places more focus on semantics than anything else, arguing that it’s not actually a Mosque per se but a Community Center containing rooms for prayer. Although we’re largely ignorant of the difference, Muslims do make a distinction between facilities that have rooms for prayer and buildings dedicated solely to worship and actively teach the faith and the Qur’an.
The problem with that argument, is that it ignores the real issue at hand.
I am reminded of what Colin Powell said in a 2008 appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press” in regards to the accusation (often with sinister undertones) that Barack Obama was a Muslim:
“I’m also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, “Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.” Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, “He’s a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists.” This is not the way we should be doing it in America.
I feel strongly about this particular point because of a picture I saw in a magazine. It was a photo essay about troops who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And one picture at the tail end of this photo essay was of a mother in Arlington Cemetery, and she had her head on the headstone of her son’s grave. And as the picture focused in, you could see the writing on the headstone. And it gave his awards-Purple Heart, Bronze Star-showed that he died in Iraq, gave his date of birth, date of death. He was 20 years old. And then, at the very top of the headstone, it didn’t have a Christian cross, it didn’t have the Star of David, it had crescent and a star of the Islamic faith. And his name was Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan, and he was an American. He was born in New Jersey. He was 14 years old at the time of 9/11, and he waited until he can go serve his country, and he gave his life. Now, we have got to stop polarizing ourself in this way. And John McCain is as nondiscriminatory as anyone I know. But I’m troubled about the fact that, within the party, we have these kinds of expressions.”
-Colin Powell, NBC’s “Meet the Press” (October 19th, 2008)
So whether it’s a Community Center with prayer rooms or a Mosque, what does it matter? That’s not the conversation that needs to occur.
The bottom line is this: these people are Americans, but we continue to treat them as an alien and hostile presence in our country. Regardless of whether we agree with their choice of religion or lifestyle, they are people that are born in this country, breathe our air, buy our goods, support our way of life, and will die here in the presence and care of their family members…also Americans. They will bleed, sweat, and struggle in pursuit of the American dream.
Americans want to build something for their people – whether it be a community center or a place of worship – within two blocks of the former site of the World Trade Center, where on September 11th many of their own fell in a violent attack from extremists. However, they have people screaming that no, they can’t, because doing so would be disrespectful to the people who perished in the 9/11 attacks. Then a possible Presidential candidate in 2012, Newt Gingrich, likens Muslims as a whole to Nazi German or Japan under Hirohito, the implication being that Muslims as a whole are the enemy and an unwelcome presence in the America that was attacked in 2001.
I can only imagine what it feels like to be a Muslim and seeing someone as prominent and potentially powerful as Gingrich saying such things. It must be heartbreaking and discouraging to say the least.
Equating any people with fundamentalist terrorist fringe groups plays directly into the hands of our real enemies and engages in a very un-American practice of associating the whole of a people with the worst elements of humanity. Those speaking out so vehemently against the construction of the facility in question are operating under the guise of being sensitive to the families of victims of the 9/11 attacks, but when you break it down it’s not much more than a conceited effort to put a logistical and humanitarian face on an ugly sentiment.
Rather than putting in the effort to educate others and say no, these people are a part of our great nation and have a right to be seen and exist, instead there are people who insist that we should tell them that they are not welcome because one of their own once did the unthinkable.
Except not all Muslims are terrorists, just as not all Mexicans are illegal, and not all blacks are criminals, etcetera.
Even those few in opposing the Mosque who don’t harbor hostility towards Muslim present troubling arguments. Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani recently asked for the facility not to be constructed because the mereintroduction of the issue creates a harmful schism. I read his words and was immediately reminded of those who said the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s was asking for too much too quickly, and that these “agitators” were harmful to the health and safety of this country.
Hogwash.
We can be better, and we can be brave. We have come so far in the last fifty years, and yet there are moments like this where I am reminded of the possibility that we may have accepted certain people and made certain gains under protest and simply transplanted our biases to a different, smaller group with the idea that we could get away with it because they weren’t high profile enough for our hostility towards them to warrant greater scrutiny.
But then I remember what we’ve done before, and what we can do again.
We can be better. Let’s let them build their Community Center, or their Mosque, or whatever it is. The important thing is that we let them know that, hey, we’re all part of America, and we all got attacked on September 11th, 2001. And let’s not ever forget that.
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107 Responses to Mosque Madness
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“And it is permitted to be said such things as, “Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.” Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America.”
Powerful words right there. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the US have truly lost their damn mind.
This “Ground Zero Mosque” resentment is nothing more than anti-Islam sentiment. It’s absurd that in a country as diversified as the US, we still have large groups of people being brainwashed by fear mongering.
The irony of the whole situation is the fact that there have been countless crimes committed in the name of other religions, yet where’s the opposition to their proposals? The murder of abortion doctors? The bombings of abortion facilities? Manifest Destiny? The execution of Native Americans? Sex scandals involving Catholic priests? Come on people, if you don’t want to open your eyes, at least open a book.
I totally agree with you! How dare we judge all Muslims for the actions of a few. The Muslim religion is one that preaches peace from what I understand. Granted, my understanding is limited as a Catholic, but I used to work with a devout Muslim man who is one of the kindest, sweetest people I’ve ever had the pleasure to know. I’m afraid bigotry is alive and well in the U.S. Allowing a mosque 2 blocks from the 9/11 site of horror in no way diminishes the sadness and sacrifice of so many.
BRAVO!!
I’ll be interested to see if the furor over the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque” situation leads to backlash against this facility in the months ahead: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081906506.html?hpid=dynamiclead
Such a well thought out post. Thank you.
Thank you for writing this. It can’t be said enough.
So well put. Great post!
If it was just the fact that they want to build a mosque near ground zero, than that would be fine. Something that I’ve noticed is that certain Muslims in positions of power (and even Muslim young people in this country) in their religious communities refuse to “speak ill” (I guess you could say) of the attacks on 911. Also, when people follow where the money goes between organizations in the Muslim community, terrorist organizations seem to enter in the picture somehow (of course, people say this about our government).
My impression of the above is that peace-loving Muslims fear radical Muslims and tend to be afraid to openly take a stand against them. I think that they are afraid of the violence that may be directed toward them, and who wouldn’t be. This is the issue that is in my mind, and it is worries me. I think that others notice this, and it may be the source of some of the lack of trust.
When you have peace-loving Muslims fearing the radicals, then there is no telling what the radicals will be able to get the peace-loving folks to do for them.
But just call me a crazy, ignorant, right winger or something. I know that no one likes to hear opinions like mine in this country right now.
“Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.”
Words from the Holy Qu’ran, Chapter 7, Verse 199.
When I say that radicals may scare peace-loving folks to do things that they shouldn’t do, I am not saying that this is an every day issue, and that the peace loving folks can’t be trusted altogether and as a whole. I think that a situation might arise at some point in time where this can happen.
Great idea; and when they blow up the Empire State Building- let’s put a mosque there too. I think that will “build tolerance” and “create an understanding,” between the East and the West as Feisal Abdul Rauf claims to be doing by building this mosque- err, I mean community center.
Do you think he was trying to build tolerance when he said “America brought 9/11 on itself,”?
I don’t disagree with a word of what you say here, Kev.
Since I know you’re a “Friend of Tom” (Scharpling), a couple of weeks back on The Best Show, he actually did a short “Soap Box” session where he brought up a good point. What ever happened to the plans to erect something where the Twin Towers used to be? It was something that everybody was Gung Ho about in the initial aftermath of 9/11. It just seems like desire for any such memorial has dwindled away.
Yet now, when someone proposed the idea for a community center containing this room of Muslim worship, people are all up in arms.
It will be interesting to see what happens, although I hope that we (as Americans) can control our hatred and not let things get carried away.
one of your best blogs yet!
Excellently said, Kevin!
And another thing…
People not wanting a mosque there is not an example of intolerance- it’s not like there was a campaign to have the giant one on 92nd street shut down. If Feisal Abdul Rauf had wanted to build this anywhere else in the city I don’t think it would have been a big deal.
“many people are still unable to separate Muslims from the violent radical fundamentalists that perpetuate terror and are responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks”
I 100% agree. What has happened to tolerance in this country? It wasn’t Muslims as a whole that attacked on 9/11. It was radical fundamentalists that happened to be Muslim. Let’s remember to seperate the two!
I almost just vomited on my keyboard when saw Newt Gingrich’s name in the same sentence as ‘Presidential candidate’.
Thanks for this well-written post. Sometimes people need to be reminded of what means to be a patriot.
This wave of hysterical anti-Islamic sentiment that’s washing the US makes me wonder if the terrorists have already won.
i agree with everything you had to say. i actually posted this on my facebook last week: http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
it shows you other things within the same radius of the wtc site – supposed ‘hallowed ground.’ well, i received quite the backlash-lecture from one of my facebook friends- the tone of his response, implying i was ‘ignorant of the facts’ and foolish for thinking the way i did, completely disgusted me to the point that i deleted him. it’s not that i can’t listen to the other side, but to call me names and tell me i don’t do my homework when clearly he’s been listening to too much talk radio and fox news just pissed the hell outta me.
bottom line in my mind is, we are a country of religious freedom. because some extremists did what they did does not make every muslim a terrorist or even violent in the least. i think this is ignorance, plain and simple, and it’s as ugly as my ‘friend’.
@Derryx: Watch the episode of Penn & Teller BS of the 9/11 Memorial site, it was all political of who got the contract and how many entries were ignored and which ones were pushed to the front of the pack of different reasons. It’s pretty clear we’d never agree on what to put there but instead it’s a middle-of-the-road design that does not really symbolize the Twin Towers.
@Tom- so by extension, all priests are pedophiles, all Mormons are polyamorous and marry little girls, all Jews are committed to war, and all Christians are right-wing fanatics? Your logic with the word “they” reeks of ignorance; one of my close friends is Muslim, and I assure you, “they” all don’t have plans to blow up the Empire State Building. Most of “them” just want to live in peace, and not be targeted by bigots like you.
Also, I could find no direct quote of the Imam saying in any context that “America brought 9/11 on itself”, but let’s assume he did. Pat Robertson and Ron Paul have implied the same, with no notable repercussions whatsoever. Why don’t you go picket on THEIR doorsteps? Oh, wait, because that would be counter-productive to your right-wing agenda.
Get real. A prayer room exists feet from where the Pentagon is, and Muslims pray in that room as well. Hell didn’t freeze over, the world hasn’t stopped turning- so wow, I’m sure putting one near the Twin Towers would just have the complete opposite effect.
It’s sad; America is *supposed* to be the country of tolerance for religions. But clearly, we have people who feel otherwise, and that doesn’t reflect well on us as a nation. It’s enough to make one ashamed.
Kriskaten, ironic isn’t it? Not only can you demonstrate against the proposed community center, but walk a few blocks over and you can do your share by stimulating the local economy in one of the strip clubs. Now that’s about as american as corporate welfare! :)
Tom, who is “they?” It’s not radical extremists who want to build a mosque/community center. It’s a group of Muslims. Why are you faulting an entire religious group for the actions of a few extremists? Would you fault all Christians if a few crazy extremists CALLING themselves Christians blew something up? Would you fault all Christians because the Army of God, an extremist Christian group, believes its right to kill abortion-admistering doctors and blow up abortion clinics? Are all Christians like Scott Roeder, like how you seem to believe all Muslims are like those who attacked on 9/11? Unbelievable.
This whole mosque debate has me scratching my head and wondering what has become of this county. When it first came up, I thought to myself… now why is this even being discussed? Now that it has blown up into something so ridiculous, so absolutely insane, it feels completely surreal. I still find it hard to believe that there are people like Tom out there who can say such things with a straight face, in America, and actually believe there is some validity to their point.
I completely agree with everything you said. I’ve had this same conversation with people a LOT recently. And despite my agreeing, I have an almost equally unpopular opinion regarding the situation. I feel that the victims/victims families from 9/11 are being allowed too much sway in this matter. Go ahead, crucify me for saying that, but before you do, understand that I know many families who lost someone in the attack, and almost lost my own uncle, and a number of those people agree with me on this matter. I absolutely respect their rights to a memorial, and they should have one at ground zero, but that does not mean they have the right to have such a strong sway in the building of anything else in the city. It’s the city’s decision, not theirs or anyone else’s for that matter, and it’s been approved. I mean look at this article: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/08/dear_rest-of-am.php I find most of this more insulting to the memory of the 9/11 victims than building a mosque, yet the families/victims have not complained. There’s a clear discrepancy that exists and it’s painful to watch. All this controversy is doing, is preventing the actual memorial and new buildings from being built so that the ground zero space is left empty, businesses handicapped, and downtown manhattan still a mess. That is exactly what part of the 9/11 attack was trying to accomplish: preventing growth, halting progress. Sitting here and debating religious rights (when religious freedom is what our country was founded on in the first place) is only giving the actual terrorists and extremist that attack us exactly what they wanted.
@Dan – I did see that. I think it is very relevant now that these plans may or may not move forward to show how the American public and our lawmakers dropped the ball on memorializing “Ground Zero” in a proper manner.
Great post Kevin :)
http://arthistory.about.com/od/from_exhibitions/ig/american_chronicles/aonr_dia_09_08.htm#
We’re really a very primitive people, Kev. The Founding Fathers themselves were right smart, but all the rank-and-file clear thinkers and principled compromisers of the 1770s got kicked into Canada and left the US to Sam Adams and his Beantown dockyard thugs.
Unfortunately, the entire post-9/11 gestalt in the US has been driven by the underlying theme of a “war” on terror instead of a concerted and coordinated international military/diplomatic/law enforcement effort to detect these criminal bands (and to pressure those states tolerating them to assuage their own lunatic fringes). And you can’t have a good war unless you have an easily understood and categorized enemy who clearly represents the Other. Extremists are everywhere and the term is too generic to strike the necessary fear…but Muslim extremists, now that’s a different story. Muslims blew up the Trade Center. Muslims have been trying to drive our friends and allies the Israelis into the sea since 1948. Muslims made Cassius Clay change his name and get uppity.
Just as the political process in general in this country has changed from one of principled compromise to vanquish or be vanquished, so must one take an unequivocal stand on this particular center. The “build it anywhere else” crowd is as guilty of separate-but-equal as those who favored Plessy v Ferguson.
Build it. Build it there. Remember what Ghandi said to the man whose child was killed by a Muslim mob: “Find a Muslim child whose parents have been killed by Hindus and raise him as your own, but raise him as a Muslim.”
The USA has always talked a good game about religious freedom and tolerance, but it’s been 90% horse ****. This particular mosque/center’s just the latest proof we’re still a bunch of frightened hypocrites who have somehow managed to convince ourselves we’ll all go home to Jesus if we just toe the line meekly enough when Lord Charlatan scares us sufficiently.
I say instead of ANY kind of religeous center, we simply put up a huge copy of the Constitution.Anyone remember that old thing?
It is a FACT that obama’s father (now dead) was a muslim.
Obama’s step-father is a muslim. Obama’s middle name is hussein, a muslim name.
Obama spent six years in muslim schools overseas in Indonesia. At the very least he is muslim-friendly.
Holy crap…they’re building a mosque near the 9/11 site?! NO WAY! When did all this happen?
I’m kidding.
I agree with everything you said though. It’s asinine for these people all up in arms over the building of this ‘mosque’. It appears they are lumping all muslims or people of islam and saying every last one of them is a terrorist. Untrue.
Aren’t we supposed to be more tolerant as a people than this?
Thanks, Kevin. Well said.
This is embarrassing. Who builds what where is for the builder, land owner, and city hall decide. It’s not my business or anyone else’s.
I remain deeply saddened by the victims of the attack on the WORLD trade center. Regardless of their faith and heritage.
Well said Marshall, well said.
It’s a football. It doesn’t matter. It’s not even a mosque, and it’s not even on “Ground Zero”. Even if it is, the right is using this as a distraction, making people angry and bringing in campaign dollars. Don’t think the left is blameless either, they’re using it to do the same thing. Gman’s right, we’re a primitive people. We are so easily controlled by political parties throwing meat into our hungry canine mouths. We fight, they *all* profit.
And it doesn’t matter who’s in office. It’s all the same.
So Mike, does that mean you’re muslim-unfriendly? Who CARES if his middle name is a popular Muslim name (it’s actually Arabic and not Muslim, though, but thanks for trying). Who CARES if he’s Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Wiccan for god sakes. THIS IS AMERICA. IT SHOULD NOT MATTER.
I saw a picture of a protester with a sign about how extremists are not welcome… had to do a double take. Is he talking about himself? Because that’s one word I would use to describe a bunch of ignorant people who think it’s okay to suggest that Islam be banned HERE, IN AMERICA. Extremists.
How to end this issue, O.B says ” I know plenty Muslim FBI and CIA agents in New York that would love to have pray their, good for them and good for America,”
cased closed people just want this to be monitored properly and not turn out to be a hateful Rev Wright look alike preaching ground.
Two Things:
@Mike Dyer: So?
This is AMERICA dammit! If you want to live in a place where religion is controlled, and you can only believe what the government tells you to believe, go live in China. See how that works for you. Good grief!
Kavri V. – I agree with you totally.
He’s muslim-friendly? Who in the hell cares? I know some people who practice the muslim faith, so I guess I am, too, muslim-friendly…good God, who the hell cares?
FWIW, I am also, every other religion or non-religion-friendly too.
Very well said, Kevin. Thank you.
I agree with Kevin, and I also agree with Ron Paul who says the real issue here is property rights. People, by and large, are allowed to do with their private property what they wish, as long as it is not illegal and does not violate local zoning ordinances.
Personally, I don’t care if they build it or not. But I will fight for their right to do so, because I want to reserve that right for myself, as well.
It’s a shame that this has turned into such a vehicle for hate. I feel like the right-wingers approach these issues and take a side that really has no basis in law or the Constitution to energize their base. It helps them win elections (see gay marriage in 2004), and they have their sights set on taking back Congress. It’s a sad political side show and it drive me crazy that the media continue to fan the flames and stir up trouble where there doesn’t need to be any.
I know most of the comments say we should be ashamed, freedomd of religion. yes…of course. Well, I know a person who was a member of the Muslim faith, and I just am curious is she lying to protect their faith about the crimes against believers of the faith, or are they really not that bad. The one pain that bothers me out of all of this is that none of you recognize the people who were literally blown up over the faith. I totally disagree with the building. They have many choices, yet as the faith/Muslims do, they erect shrines in honor of saying we have over come this strike, here goes a mosque. Yes, I am sure I have people cringing but really, freedom of religion, well I say let me build a christain church in any of these countries think they will let me have a vote?
Kevin great post, I think you speak for the youth today as we are more friendly and more open to others of different ethnicities and faiths. That is why we came out in full force for the last election. I dont know why its such a generational thing but older folks, from there 50’s on seem to be more angry about this than anyone else. I dont know if its ignornace, but they should know best how hate can tear this country apart (Segregation). This issue is slowly leading down a slippery path of hatred again, and i see those like Tony Bologna on here saying Obama’s muslim friendly. So what, Tony you’re probably Christian friendly, have you forgotten the millions of lives taken in the fight for Christianity.
Yeah! Agreed! 100%!
Thanks Kevin, I have no words to describe how I feel that we’re still debating this…I guess people who want people to be treated equal, listen and people who really don’t care won’t.
Well said!!! Americans have become to racist and small minded it’s sickening. The lack of uneducated people with the closed minds is what’s going to be the demise of this country.
Kevin, is that you behind this well-written post? Agree with you 100%. Why do people believe everything they see/hear on the internet? Some guy makes a YouTube video for 7 minutes and it’s suddenly “the gospel truth”? They just automatically believe it. And no, I did not read any of the other 40+ posts before mine.
Excellent post Kevin, thank you.
Kevin – I’ve never read your blog before, but saw the “Mosque Madness” headline and checked it out. Great post – thoughtful, articulate and well-reasoned. I will be back.
I ask this simple question.
What would your opinion be if someone wanted to build a German Heritage center across from the gates of Auschwitz?
How is that ANY different?
In the Mosque case, the phrase “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should” fits.
I don’t believe for a second that the group behind this didn’t realize the symbolism of the location of the Mosque.
And since they did, I ask where is the compassion they profess..I don’t see it.
I still don’t understand why so many people take issue with what seems like it should be a very straight-forward issue.
Very well said. You make some really good points. I enjoyed reading this post.
People of all religion and race died on 9/11 that shouldn’t have. 9/11 was an attack against Americans not Christians or Jews. It was an attack on American ideals like freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of speech. The powers that be are loudly proclaiming how it’s a travesty to even think of putting a Muslim prayer room 2 blocks from the WTC site. They are proclaiming it loudly because they know they are wrong. They aren’t doing it for the benefit of those who died on 9/11 they are doing it to pander for votes. Great post Kevin!
I’d be so interested to read the comments if this post the TU was located in the south. Hmmmm….
And, like almost everyone here, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
TOM, I AGREE! NICE WAY TO PUT IT! AND MAY I ALSO ADD, IF MUSLIMS ARE SO “PEACE LOVING”…THEN WHY WOULD THEY CHOSE TO FIGHT OVER THIS? THE SENTIMENT SHOULD BE TO REVERE THE DEAD. THIS IS MOCKERY OF EVERYONE WHO DIED THAT DAY.
SHAME ON EVERYONE WHO IS TRYING TO ACT “pc” ABOUT THIS.
Here’s my solution to the whole thing, lets build it with a room for every religion that is largely practiced from Catholic to Muslim to Hindu and so on and so on. Every religion needs a place for prayer so make it a Universal Prayer Building.
Religion had nothing to do with the events that happened, It all comes down to a mad man who over used and over thought the religion in the wrong text. It was a mad man who planned it all out not a relgion.
number 49, you state: “I don’t believe for a second that the group behind this didn’t realize the symbolism of the location of the Mosque. And since they did, I ask where is the compassion they profess..I don’t see it.”
i believe, too, that they do realize the symbolism, but perhaps their symbolism is different then the negative way you are interpreting it. to THEM the symbolism is that we, as americans, are open, tolerant and UNDERSTAND that it was not an ENTIRE FAITH that bombed the wtc – it was TERRORISTS, not muslims. we are a country based on RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE AND FREEDOM – what BETTER place for a mosque to be an example of this, the very roots of our freedom, then this?? they are also being compassionate by saying ‘come worship with us, come try to understand our faith and educate yourself, instead of fearing us’ by turning it into not just a mosque but a community center. i’m sorry to yesll, but it’s just absurd to me that people can interpret this any other way.
one more thing – muslim-americans were also killed in the wtc on 9/11, why is no one on fox news pointing that out?
It’s interesting how people deride those against the mosque as being closed minded because their opinion differs from theirs. And then thrown terms like racist around- and then pull the “my best friend is Muslim,” card- ripe for parody.
Do you know the definition of close minded? I guess if everyone was as close minded as you, in the same direction, on the exact same subject, the world would be a better place…err, for you.
So you don’t like that i used “they.” Cry me a river, baby. You yourself think that just because some bigots don’t want a mosque that everyone who doesn’t want the mosque MUST be a bigot- one of “them.” What does your own hypocrisy taste like?
I don’t care if you pray to Jesus, Allah or a tortilla- personally, I just don’t think a mosque belongs there. Damn right we live in America- practice whatever religion you want or don’t- but take a step back and ask yourself, is the only and best place, in all of New York City, where there is room for another mosque the same place where radical Muslims flew a plane into, or are THEY (the individuals proposing said mosque) doing it to be…annoying?
I don’t think any religious center should be there because it divides people- does it have a right to be there? Sure. Do I think It’s insensitive? Yep. Does you hating on people who don’t want it there make you a hypocrite? Yep. Do I have a right to think that? Yes.
Maybe everyone not in favor of having a mosque there isn’t a racist, is it possible?
Maybe I and others who were a stone’s throw away from the towers still haven’t just gotten over it as quickly as we should have. I’m still soured by 9/11. Maybe I feel sick when I think about watching the smoke billow out from ground 0 from my 12th grade class room for two weeks. Maybe I take it personally because I watched funeral after funeral procession in my neighborhood through November 2001 and then sporadic ones 7 months later win they found another body. Maybe because my family members and friends and friends of friends and parents of friends died in the crash. I don’t know, but I’m surprised that I feel sick, 9 years later, every time it comes up it I see footage on TV.
Do I believe all muslims are terrorists? Nope. Do I hold all Muslims responsible? No.
Am I a right wing bigot? Nope. Voted for Obama, support gay marriage and i take being prochoice one step further- thats right- I’m pro-abortion. I even have Muslim friends. I just don’t toe the Liberal Line blindly and support things I don’t want to support.
Do I think Muslims can practice their religion freely in America? Yep, and I thank a tortilla every day that we are all able to practice our superstitions freely.
Do I believe that means that I need to think a Mosque or a church or a Taco Bell can go wherever without me thinking freely about whether or not I want it there? No. Do you? Apparently.
Do I give a darn about what you think about me? Nope. Why? Because you’ve already proven you can’t do a simple Google search about Abdul Rauf- so let me do it for you…
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=abdul+rauf+9%2F11+quotes
Jim P,
Unless they wanted to build a Nazi Heritage Center next to Auschwitz, there shouldn’t be a problem.
This post made me shed a tear for Liberty. Great writing!
@Sue (#41)
well I say let me build a christain church in any of these countries think they will let me have a vote?
This isn’t about another country that may or may not have restrictions on religious beliefs. This is about building a mosque in the United States where there are (like it or not) different religions. It sounds like you are saying that you can’t be American if you are Muslim. I’m not sure we (as a whole) should be determining which freedoms are okay and which are okay to be ignored.
#55..
If you truly believe that, then explain the following quote from the imam that is heading up the Mosque
“We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of INNOCENT non Muslims,”
I translate that to say “the US has been worse to Muslims than Al Queda has been to non-Muslims”. That doesn’t sound like someone that professes the right symbolism to me. And btw, what does he really mean by “innocent”? And why did he specifically use innocent when describing non-Muslims?
#57.
Tell that to Bnai brith…
Bravo! Excellent post!
Tom, When Abdul Rauf said that the US was an accessory to 9/11 he meant that it was about purely US policy and he was condeming more the government policies and that they saw it coming but did not do enough to prevent it.
Jim P, Please stop taking those words out of context and stop analizing them to the point where its all fiction in your head. The word INNOCENT means just that. INNOCENT as in they didn’t do anything. He was implying that the muslims were innocent along with the others the US has bloods on it’s hand for such as, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Dresden, etc. Sure, it was on enemy soils that these attacks took place, but there were innocent lives taken, must like the US invaded IRAQ instead of Afghanistan at first, and targeted muslims.
If you think our government is telling us everything you need to get out of your fantasy world. THe US has more blood on it’s hands than most people can count.
You are completely missing the point. I don’t think any freedom loving American would argue that Muslims don’t have a right to build a mosque. The issue is not about anyone’s right to practice their religion. This is not a legal issue. It’s an issue of common sense. What is right and what is wrong.
The fact of the matter is, ground zero is a very sensitive location. Less than ten years ago we watched in horror as our countrymen were burned, crushed or leaped to their death from 110 stories up. Families of the victims and a majority of other Americans think that it is in bad taste for a mosque or (13 story cultural center) as you point out.. to be built near the memorial site of a trajedy carried out in the name of a religious faith. Whether or not it was a few fanatics who who carried out the murders in the name of islam or not. It happened and is still a versy sensitive issue in the hearts and minds of many. You seem to be missing that point altogether. It seems to me at this point the only unreasonable people in this whole debate are those pushing forward to have the mosque built at that location knowing that the wound is still open for many.
UNC2147 or whatever your name is.. I too was once a hemp necklace wearing college student wet behind the ears. someday you’ll figure it out after years of paying taxes.
I love how all those on the left make this a political issue. Were you not opposed to the liberation of 25 million arab men and women in Iraq? Are you not opposed to actions in Afghanistan? I guess it doesn’t matter when a 16 year old is stoned to death for wearing a half shirt.. as long as it’s not in your backyard right?
I think this blog was a grasp at straws. Trying to equate BHO’s faith with a sensitive debate about a mosque being built within the shadow of the greatest trajedy to occur on american soil less than ten years ago is off the mark. I personally could care less if BHO was an atheist. I believe it’s something like 9 % think he’s muslim. But your right.. who cares if he was, is or isn’t. The real problem should be with the way he’s running this country into the ground.
Selma..
How is it out of context?
Go back and read the quote..please. He said NOTHING about innocent
Muslims, he mentioned innocent non-Muslims. What it means to me, is that some non-Muslims aren’t innocent, otherwise, why use the term at all? It would have been a totally different meaning if he had said “innocent muslims and non-muslims”
Also, I find it peculiar that you are saying the US was targeting Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. I thought this was about the Taliban and Al Queda, and the fact they claim to be Muslim is irrelevant? You can’t try to separate the Mosque from these terror groups when it fits your purpose for one argument and then toss them all in a religious group for another argument.
I don’t live in a fantasy world, but obviously you live in an edited one.
64: for the win.
Further food for thought re: 1 in 5…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/24/one-in-five-americans-believe_n_691843.html#s130111
There is no right not to be offended.
Kevin knows I generally don’t agree with what he’s written, but I certainly stand by his right to say it.
As long as someone isn’t suggesting that this mosque should somehow be stopped by government intervention (assuming that its dealings are all legal, naturally), I stand by the right of any American who believes that this project is an affront to their sensibilities – and there are many Muslims who believe that this mosque shouldn’t be built in its presently planned location – to have their say and register their dissatisfaction in the public court of opinion.
I am all about tolerance, but tolerance is a two way street. To have the opinion that a massive, 13-story mosque at Ground Zero – and it IS at Ground Zero, considering that the building set to be demolished was heavily damaged by falling pieces of fuselage which lowered the asking price considerably – is a slap in the face to the sensibility of the majority of Americans is not in and of itself intolerant. The refusal to consider alternate locations for the project in the face of such feelings, even despite offers of help finding such an alternate location, could be considered such.
Excellent post.
Did you seen the news story over the weekend about soldiers at a military base in Virginia being punished for skipping a concert by an evangelical Christian band? They were told they could either go to the concert, or stay in their barracks and clean–no use of cellphones or computers allowed.
According to the article, 80-100 of about 200 soldiers refused to attend. About 20 refused on the basis of their own religious beliefs. The rest must have either felt it was important to stand up against religious tyranny regardless of their own views, or else they knew the band would suck.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-08-21-troops-christian-concert_N.htm
How do the folks who are opposed to this mosque feel about soldiers being compelled to attend evangelical Christian events? Is it okay, since it wasn’t “Muslim-friendly”? This hypocrisy can only lead to one thing–a rise in pastafarianism.
Great post, Kevin. The ONLY way the stance of the opponents can be justified is by acknowledging as fact (which it isn’t) that somehow Muslims everywhere bear at least some small responsibility for the attacks on 9/11. Balderdash! This is the same thing as saying that all Christians bear some responsibility for brutality of the Ku Klux Klan (who “claim” to be Christian as the 9/11 attackers “claim” to be Muslim); or that all Jews bear some responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus… both thoroughly discredited points of view. As this should be. The stance of the opponents is just a thinly veiled excuse for prejudice, even if they fail to see it that way. As such, it is inapposite to both our Constitutional principles and to our professed (especially Christian) religious beliefs.
To A.: The Imam who seeks to create Park51 has publicly and regularly denounced the 9/11 attacks AND any and all terrorist acts as un-Islamic and not in keeping with the teachings of the Koran. For this, he is a target of al Qaeda.
To CattyColonie: People of many faiths and many nationalities died in the World Trade Center that day, true Muslims of good will included. Does Park51 make a mockery of their deaths as well? Does the “gentlemen’s club” located even closer to the former WTC make a mockery of those deaths? Why no protest of that, if you are consistent and your views not prejudiced? How about the plans to build a shopping center right on the WTC site? Are you ok with people buying underwear and smoothies on “hallowed ground”?
It’s amazing how the uninformed and those happy in their ignorance receive so much undeserved attention in this country.
Excerpt: “In view of that, I think the sponsors should take into very serious consideration the kind of turmoil that’s been created and look to compromise the issues before them and find a suitable place that doesn’t create the kind of controversy it does,” -Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, Democrat-Manhattan
As an aside, note that you can’t find the statement presented in the media in a fluid context in the news and this is instructive. The Main Stream Media can’t help themselves, but to parse every blurb or sentence. This is what they generally do when they favor the figure speaking, but dislike the message.
Sometimes you can learn a lot watching the wheels turn.
Notice how all the hate-mongers wrap themselves in the shrouds of the 9/11 victims, yet the biggest promoters of this bigotry fest voted against paying the medical costs of those brave and committed Americans who rushed into those collapsing buildings to save whomever might have survived, and contracted who knows what in the process to ruin their own health. Talk, even hate-talk, is cheaper than real action to truly help 9/11’s victims (who came from all faiths and non-faith as well).
9/11 was an inside job. It had nothing to do with Muslims.
Well, kudos on your blog. However. I am a little put of by one comment you made. That comment is “The bottom line is this: these people are Americans”. My question regarding your comment is this: can this be verified as “fact” that “these people are Americans” or are they simply waiting for their citizen ship to be approved and are here on student/work visa’s?
While I personally all for cultural diversification. I can not help but remember one very important fact surrounding the events of September 11, 2001. The same “terrorists” who violently took aim at America were also “citizens” here on work/student visa’s. They were living among the Naturalized Citizens of the United States, living peacefully in our society until they played out their mission.
Am I promoting racism? No! I am promoting caution based upon past events by a religious organization (however radical) who have shown violence not only toward this country, but degradation of women and children, even in their own country.
Have we invited the “fox into the hen house?” definately. But thier is no reason to hand them the hens.
Vermont governor Howard Dean, a hero to many liberals, has called efforts to build an Islamic community center two blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks: “a real affront to people who lost their lives.”
The race card, the bigot card and the islamaphobia cards have all been thrown. There are only three cards in three card monte.
They had to know that this kind of reaction would result from their plans to build a mosque at G0. It is definitely stupid to say they can’t build there because it is “insensitive”, but the fact that they are trying seems like it is a publicity stunt to raise money for it. Or, it is just a way to make Americans look ignorant. Either way, it is fishy and non-religious in my view.
I also believe that it is stupid to think that BO is a Muslim. Yes, he has that family background. But, it seems clear to me that he has a chip on his shoulder about a lot of what is traditionally American…obviously due to injustices that those with similar ancestry had to endure…and that includes Christianity. Rev. Wright practices a religion that is not at all similar to the Christianity we all know. This may be why people say he’s Muslim…he definitely doesn’t act Christian, so he must be the other one he’s affiliated with.
What happened with that sting op that the FBI had with the Albany imam? Didn’t the guy willingly want to help buy weaponry for terror activity? I don’t think that those people were terror sympathizers, but that they wanted to be supportive of other Muslims. What’s the deal there? I might not be remembering something…
Looks pretty diverse to me and this is by a New York Times photographer:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/23/nyregion/23mosque-span/23mosque-span-articleLarge.jpg
Very well said Kevin.
I think part of the problem is a fear or uneasiness of the unknown. To me it seems like most Americans do not know the Islamic religion or have a stereotype of Muslims in their head, and that has a part in this controversy. There seems to be factors working against Muslims, specifically many Americans do not personally know any Muslims, Muslims do not have a leader like the Pope who can speak for the religion as a whole, and condemn the acts of fanatics, and well known American Muslims such as Shaq and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are not out touting their religion.
I think if more Americans understood and were comfortable with Muslims this mosque would be a non-issue.
Thank you, Kevin for such a measured and rational post.
I’d like to point out that, according to its literature (really read it!) Islam IS a violent and oppressive religion…but wait, let me finish…so is Christianity. Have you read the bible? Sure there’s love and fellowship, but also judgment, intolerance and outright hate. I’ve yet to encounter a religion that doesn’t have this quality at its core. In order to believe you are chosen, you must believe others are not – and ascribe all sorts of inferiority to them.
This doesn’t mean that the people who practice or believe in these religions are evil (although some certainly are). Many people choose the good bits of their faith and toss the unsavory parts – but that is an act of sanitation.
Religion is a dangerous and divisive thing. It fueled the US’s pillaging and war-mongering around the world – and it fueled the 9/11 attacks,which were partially a response to them. We will all do better when we leave it (and other dividers) behind and see one another as people with the same interests and the same value.
Thank you Kevin, fair moderation and prompt!
“The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.”
I know that baby boomers and their offspring (me) like to err on the side of tolerance, but please explain this. To me, it looks like the imam is saying “Is terrorism bad? Well, it is complicated…You know, hard to define.” I’ll bet no one will acknowledge this post.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_terror_error_efmizkHuBUaVnfuQcrcabL
Imam terror error
Ground Zero mosque leader hedges on Hamas
By TOM TOPOUSIS
Last Updated: 2:47 AM, June 19, 2010
Posted: 2:47 AM, June 19, 2010
Comments: 7 | More Print
The imam behind plans to build a controversial Ground Zero mosque yesterday refused to describe Hamas as a terrorist organization.
According to the State Department’s assessment, “Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets.”
Asked if he agreed with the State Department’s assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, “Look, I’m not a politician.
“The issue of terrorism is a very complex question,” he told interviewer Aaron Klein.
“There was an attempt in the ’90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that.”
Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn’t budge.
“I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy,” Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.
Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt’s outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.
“I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood,” he said, disputing a rumor.
Rauf’s position has come under a microscope as he leads an effort to build a $100 million mosque and community center at 45 Park Place, near Ground Zero.
Meanwhile, a pastor on Staten Island who signed off on a controversial plan to sell a former convent to the Muslim American Society has changed his mind.
St. Margaret Mary R.C. Church Pastor Keith Fennessy sent a letter to Archbishop Timothy Dolan saying that, “after careful reflection,” he has withdrawn his support for the convent sale.
But New York Archdiocese spokesman Joseph Zwilling told the Web site SI Live, “The contract was signed, and [Fennessy’s withdrawal of support] does not cancel that.”
tom.topousis@nypost.com
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_terror_error_efmizkHuBUaVnfuQcrcabL#ixzz0xZsxPWGd
I disagree! I survived 9/11 and am a recent transplant to the Albany area. I saw my friends die! and its something that will NEVER leave you. NO. its not about religious freedom! its about Politics! Why don’t you check into the story about the OTHER Church that was denied permits to build on the same spot that was actually destroyed on 9/11. The church was St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church… check out the website…http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/. Lets see what you find out about DENYING St Nicholas’ Church the permits to rebuild on the same spot as the mosque and write a blog about it!
FordhamGrad: The site links to this NYTimes article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/nyregion/03trade.html?_r=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bagli,%20Charles%20V
It notes all of the troubles behind the rebuilding effort, none of which have anything to do with what we’re talking about here. Their problems are due to a bureacratic hold-up involving the transfer of land. The church itself is also not in the same spot. St. Nicholas was at Ground Zero; the new community center is two blocks away.
All the attempts at pleading to America’s Freedom of Religion cannot alter the fact that the moslem sociopaths cited their “religious beliefs”…despite their alcohol use and soliciting of prostitutes (after all, women are for mens pleasure, per muhammad…before they slaughtered the thousands…and their followers continue to mercilessly murder so many.
Personally, I would rather a shelter for dogs that have been tortured and abused by moslems be built there and allow the moslems build their mosque somewhere in hell.
Tadgh
Very well said. I couldn’t agree more.
I would like to thank all those protesters for a job well done….
It looks as though the center will not get built because no contractor wants to touch it and without that….it won’t get done.
BRAVO!!!!!
Now lets get ourselves prepared for when they want to have Muslims who died at Ground Zero honored at the memorial…Remember to shout the mantra….They deserved it!!!!!
(We all know that’s what you guys will do next)
I am an American-muslim.All the years that I have attended the Masjid(Mosque) I’ve never heard any hate-speeches and talk about Jihad.The real definition of Jihad means”to overcome struggle”but the media wants to take the word out of text and use it from the days went muslim converts had to engage in “Jihad” to establish Islam.If Islam wasn’t established because of the revelations Prophet Muhammad received,you would defintley have a dictatorship of Taliban rule.If the Christains didn’t take battle in the”Crusades”were will the faith of Christianity be.The Masjid(Mosque) that is being proposed to be built has been a place of worship for near 30 years.Why are so many apposed all of a sudden.I think the media is attracting people who hate Muslims anyway,and now they are getting a platform to show their bigotry.
Kevin.. you’re a good kid.. well meaning… but start some independent research .. go down to Ground Zero! go talk to the families of the 9/11 victims.. go talk to the mosque but get the WHOLE story! that’s good journalism. This story is nothing about freedom of religion .. its about POWER and the Show of Strength.. don’t get caught up in smoke and mirrors. dig deeper. I LOVE AMERICA..it offers such opportunities to everyone, however, those same opportunities are NOT given or offered in countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, our enemies have learned to use our freedoms and strengths against us to continue their attacks. Kevin.. you were NOT there on 9/11 and its hard to truly understand the lasting effects on individuals. For us its like only YESTERDAY! not 9 years later!
“There are no shortage of politicians and media figures that are more than happy to stir the pot, because encouraging hate and bias under the veil of concern for the victims families leads to big ratings and big poll numbers. But can we blame them? No, not really. That’d be ignoring our own shortcomings. They can be faulted, perhaps, for exploiting a pre-existing fear and bias towards Muslims. It is, however, merely a reaction to a pre-existing condition.”
“Pre-existing fear and bias towards Muslims”? You mean the fact that 19 (radical) Muslims killed 3000 of our citizens in one day and now some attempt to build a memorial to those rat murderers 2 blocks away? Yeah, you do need to listen to this Imam’s views to get the full context. But I digress. I take offense to your article’s assumption that anyone who opposes this hates Muslims. It’s ignorant and purposely biased toward your liberal appeasing point of view. Try to show a speck of respect to opposing viewpoints in this country for a change it might surprise you and improve the political discourse. But if your angle is to just get your way since you “know what’s right for everyone” keep belittling and falsely framing opposing viewpoints (dissent) much like the DNC tools on MSNBC do daily.
Oh and as far as Obama being Christian, three points:
-He was born Muslim so 1st lets not assume anyone believing he still may be is “crazy”.
-I have doubts anyone attending and listening to Jeremiah Wright’s hateful racist preaching is all that “Christian”.
-If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck.
Sam - I’m loathe to address it since it’s off (and missing) the point, but is the implication that everyone in Jeremiah Wright’s congregation is secretly Muslim?
“PRAISE JESUS, HALLELUJAH! Ssssshhh Allah Ackbar ssssshhhhh“
Sam… if you actually believe that the proposed community center is a memorial to the 9/11 hijackers, no amount of reason or logic will ever get through to you. FordhamGrad, one does not need to have been in NYC on the day of the attacks to have been affected profoundly by it. I think most people would take offense to your assumption that anyone who doesn’t live there can’t understand. By the way, do you think Muslims inside the towers died on 9/11 too…?
And to #86… wow. Your bigotry, hatred and islamaphobia is really disgusting. I hope you don’t ever release all that hatred and evil in some misguided attack on a Muslim or group of Muslims, but if you did, I wouldn’t be surprised. YOU and those like you are the extremists. The MILLIONS of peaceful Muslims in this world are not. You should get help.
Oh, and Sam, YOU should try and show “a speck of respect to opposing viewpoints in this country” by actually NOT being a bigot and accepting that not all Muslims are evil, like you seem to believe, as evidenced by you obvious hatred for them. I don’t think Kevin or anyone in support of the mosque believes they know what’s right for everyone. They just believe that the people who wrote our Constitution should, you know, have just a little bit of say in the matter.
Kevin, way to sniff out that BS in post #84. Great job.
People still refer to the proposed community center as a mosque. Why? Despite the wealth of FACTS that conclude otherwise, the community center is still being referred to as the “Ground Zero Mosque”.
People claim ground zero is “hallowed” ground. The dead should be “revered”. Yeh, okay. Well why not shut down the strip clubs near ground zero? We have zoning regulations in place that prevent strip clubs from being constructed next to schools, churches, etc… So why would we allow strip clubs on such “hallowed” ground?
People claim they’re not anti-Islam. They say they aren’t being discriminatory in their opposition. Really? Let’s face facts, the only reason why there is opposition to this community center is because a group of RADICALS decided to commit an act of terror. Yet are those same people up in arms over the radicals and unsavory members of other religious groups? Of course not. To do so would be unamerican.
Regarding Post # 95 and its author – Get Real – you need to get the facts straight! AND I survived 9/11 and that’s not BS like your comments. Read post # 90 as to my reply Kevin. I’m NOT here to insult anyone but to simply state to research the other side of the story and speak to EVERYONE including the 9/11 families, the mosque reps, and reps from St Nicholas Church. That is something that YOU would never consider as your opinion is the same size as your brain – -very very tiny! So Please Get Real!
Danielle…Daniel….whatever your name is….I’ve been out of college for three years now and live in New York City and believe me I pay my fair share of taxes with a salary I work as hard as you to earn. I can tell you’re one of the over 50 crowd I mentioned. You’re bitter about life and the fact you were thumped in the last election. You most certainly voted for Bush, and had nothing to say when he was running us into this current situation. So this whole hemp wearing wet behind the ears comment is your’re attempt as a generalization that being young means we have no life experience. Well I do have life experience, I see people like yourself hate based on ethnicity and religion. Like i stated before you don’t come out of the wood work until a president like Obama is elected. Had this been a white christian president, I doubt we’d here one peep from you. I remember my parents telling me some poor things were said about JFK because he was the first Roman Catholic president and he is revered today. Open up your eyes and embrace those who are culturally different as in the near future those like myself (white,Catholic) will become the minority in this country. Barack Obama is just the beginning of the cultural diveristy we will be seeing in the near future and danielle here is still trying to cling to a past that no longer exists.
“My impression of the above is that peace-loving Muslims fear radical Muslims” First of all, that’s exactly what this group of Muslims is doing in building a community center. They want to bridge gaps between faith groups. That is the stated purpose for the community center. The prayer room is only on the top floor. So, yes, moderate Muslims are not only speaking up but attempting to reach out to non-Muslims but look what’s happening to them for daring to do so. It’s not violent Muslims the peace-loving Muslims fear and their fear is not unfounded. Sadly.
“This wave of hysterical anti-Islamic sentiment that’s washing the US makes me wonder if the terrorists have already won.” Me too, Sara. Me too.
“At the very least he is muslim-friendly.” Is that anything like being a (sorry for using the term to make a point, Kevin) “nigger-lover”? Yes. That’s what I thought.
“well I say let me build a christain church in any of these countries think they will let me have a vote?” Well, I knew I’d see this argument in the comments. Hello, we’re not talking about other countries but the US of A. You kind of make our point for us about protecting this country’s religioius freedom. Do you not realize that.
UNC, I’m 52. Liked your post except for the ageism. WTF?
Jim P, again with the comparing the US to other countries. But, for the record, yes, a German heritage center could be built (well, if German law allows, I really don’t know what Germany’s law are) across from Auschwitz. It’s a little thing called free speech. Oh, and I love how you presume to know what’s in their head and how it opposes their stated purpose. Must be true if the great Jim P thunk it. Or rather that he reguriated what other narrow-minded people ranted.
“the shadow of the greatest trajedy to occur on american soil” No, it’s not. I’m sorry but it’s just not. Tragic as it was it is overshadowed by stealing this land from Native Americans in the first place and Civil War and the slavery that proceeded the Civil War. Then there’s segregation and the Japanese internment camps that it’s also not as bad as. And it’s on a par with Pearl Harbor where 2,403 people died. Except for massively more lives lost, it’s similar to the Oklahoma City bombing as far as terrorism goes. And those are just what immediately came to mind. It’s the most recent is all. Not the most tragic.
“They had to know that this kind of reaction would result from their plans to build a mosque at G0.” Kind of like Rosa Parks knew it’d be controversial to not give up her seat in the front of the bus? Or the hippies knew it’d be controversial to protest the Viet Nam war? Or Kennedy knew his being the first Catholic president would be? Or, hell, for that matter Columbus knew it was to claim to sail around the world or the founding fathers definitely knew it was to rebel against England and form a better country across the ocean in the first place? Since when is being controversial the reason not to do a thing? In fact, it’s often the very reason to do it. And I will say that this does need doing if for no other reason to expose the ugliness of the Muslim hatred and put the lie to the claim that moderate Muslims are not speaking up against extremists.
A, what’s your point re: that NY Post story? He’s saying he’s no expert on terrorism and he won’t let anyone place him on one side of the controversary or the other. Seems reasonable.
Well, I guess I’ve made my opinion pretty clear already but I will add this: If this country really is still America, Park 51 will be built. If it’s prevented, we’ve lost and the terrorists got what they wanted on 9/11. They managed to destroy that great Satan America. Obviously, not all Muslims think like that, including the ones attempting to extend an olive branch here. Let them build it in peace whether you ever plan to visit it or not. If you can’t do that, it’s you — not Muslims — you’re describing when you describe a violent people.
Thanks for posting all this, Kevin. It needed saying and you said it beautifully.
Donna, apologies for the ageism. It was not directed to all Baby Boomers, but more to the majority of those that seem to make up groups like the Tea Party, that seem to cling to the past and instead of embracing future changes. These groups would rather sling words around and reinforce hate (their term is “patriotism”) as they fear the rapid change happening around them. Somehow this notion that a christian or dare I say it White America, is the only good America.
UNC1941 I hope that you’re still reading this post. For one I’m 33 years old. Two I work and volunteer my time with children in the poorest areas of the capital district. So you are waaaay off base. And I don’t know if you calling me Danielle makes you feel better but if so then continue getting your rocks off. When you are 33 and living in and paying rent on a 2500 studio in brooklyn, commuting to work an hour and a half each way and miserable because despite the fact you make 120k you live a block from someone who hasn’t worked or paid taxes ever, but has 4 children a flat screen and rent controlled apartment.. THEN come talk to me.. until then continue preaching your nonsense.. AGAIN it has NOTHING to do with the fact BO is biracial or his religious beliefs.. It has EVERYTHING to do with his politics.. But then again.. It’s much easier to call someone a racist and old timer when they disagree.. right?
daniel – When it comes to discourse, you get what you give. You began the descent into patronizing verbiage and name-calling with the “hemp necklace college student” stuff. You’re every bit as guilty as the person you’re responding to.
Terrific post. Incredibly thoughtful and well-written. Thank you.
FordhamGrad, seems as if you’ve got some growing up to do. I don’t doubt that you survived 9/11. As a matter of fact, that issue wasn’t even what I was addressing with my statement in post #95; “Kevin, way to sniff out that BS in post #84.” What I was referring to was an issue that seems to plague almost every damn media outlet in this country, the intentional omission of certain FACTS. It’s quite similar to the adolescent epidemic of “selective hearing”.
Thanks, UNC21640. I accept. Honestly, in hindsight, I am disappointed with a good chunk of my generation. Seems about 3/4 of them have become like absolutely everything they hated in their parents. But the other 25% of us deserve some credit and recognition.
Believe it or not, though, I never bought into: a) don’t trust anyone over 30, which rather assumes they’re all alike or b) sex, drugs and rock and roll. (Okay, I bought into rock and roll.) Free love was translation for getting into a woman’s pants and not respecting her in the morning (I was a freak in my time for seeing through that farce and respecting myself and not wasting time on dudes who didn’t do the same) and drugs are stupid. The assumption that everyone who came of age in the ’70’s did drugs is a stereotype that pisses me off big time as I don’t even drink.
So don’t assume everyone of a certain generation is alike and I won’t assume everyone 20-something is a brat with a sense of entitlement.
Deal?
Deal Donna. Again i just wanted to state I didn’t mean to say don’t trust anyone over 30, my point was more aimed at the age group which makes up a certain party that promotes dishonesty and veiled hatred I tend to diasgree with. I also commend you for not giving into the idea of free love during your time. Donna I also think you made a great point about how as many of us age we become more like the things we disliked in our parents. That for me is the whole money issue. I completely understand the idea that as we age we have a family to provide for so many of our morals change, but we shouldnt lose compassion for others in the process. This is where my problem comes with you DANIELLE (see you continually get my name wrong so Ill return the favor). Yes, you may think you’re struggles of making 120K a year living in a Brooklyn studio is nothing compared to someone w 4 kids living in a rent controlled building w a big flat screen are comparable. Danielle though again uses general stereotypes here though again, how many families in a rent controlled areas can afford a big, flat screen TV. My friend is a social worker in NYC and most families in those areas struggle to even afford a mattress for their kids. They stuff four people in the same bed. So Danielle thats why I know you sling hatred, but of the general stereotype you provided. The fact is for 2500 a month in New York you could afford a decent sized apmt on the upper east side, thats what i do now and I dont pay nearly that much. Also many in rent controlled areas have to deal with higher crime rates and a much touger setting to live in, I generally dont have that problem. So please be more compassionate, everyone struggles in daily life its just not something you may see on outward appearance.
Kevin, Im glad you finally decided to write about this. No one is equating being Muslim with being a terrorist, just like no one thinks Im dumb because I am blonde. Oh, but if 26 blonde women flew planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon and killed 3000 Americans, Im sure even YOU might scoff at the idea of building a hair salon at the site so that we could go about making a lot of other people blonde in the future.
The logic is okay to go one way and not the other.
The bombers were not anything but radical Muslims. Period!
All Muslims are not radical and not bombers.
But to ignore than the ones that DID do this WERE Muslim is sheer idiocy at best, and literally, suicidal (sorry for the pun) at worst