@BenFowlkesMMA on why people count out Frankie Edgar despite his dominance
Ben Fowlkes has a profile of UFC Lightweight champion Frankie Edgar, who defends his belt this Saturday in Japan against Ben Henderson, over at MMA Fighting.com. The focus is on how everybody seems to underestimate him.
According to the oddsmakers, that was true until very recently. The first time Edgar fought B.J. Penn for the UFC lightweight title, Penn was a 7-1 favorite. Even after Edgar beat him via decision to claim the belt, Penn was still somewhere in the neighborhood of a 3-1 favorite in the immediate rematch. Edgar won that fight too, this time even more convincingly than the first, but he was still a slight underdog when he defended the belt against Gray Maynard some four months later.
It wasn’t until the third fight with Maynard, which Edgar would go on to win via knockout, that he finally entered a title fight as the (slight) favorite. Even now, coming off arguably the biggest and most decisive win of his career, he’s just barely a favorite -- currently hovering at -130, according to most oddsmakers -- to beat Ben Henderson in Tokyo at UFC 144.
I've always been an Edgar fanboy and thought he was a lot better than people thought. Now here we are how many years later and somehow, despite having the most impressive resume of any Lightweight ever sans BJ Penn (who he beat twice), the guy is still somehow underrated and unsung.
I think it's a combination of the fact that, as Edgar himself points out, he's undersized for his weight class. Like his former nemesis BJ Penn at Welterweight, he walks around at or below the weight limit for his class. Unlike Penn, however, he has found more success in utilizing his speed and technique to overwhelm larger opponents while matching their strength. Like I've said before, it gets harder and perhaps more detrimental to cut weight as you progress to lower weight classes.
There's also his proclivity for decisions, which draws the ire of many fans. It'll take more than one stoppage to win them over.
But I don't think too many people put that much thought into Edgar, because he doesn't distract (or attract) them with boorish behavior, smack talk, an ego, or a manufactured personality. Which is a real shame.
Gamboa vs. Rios for…what weight class is this at again?
Yuriorkis Gamboa is jumping weight from Featherweight to Lightweight to meet former champion Brandon Rios, who had to vacate his title during his last outing after failing to make weight after three attempts and despite talk that he would be making a permanent move to Super Lightweight.
From Kevin Iole of Yahoo! Sports:
Gamboa, 30, will be jumping two weight classes to meet Rios, who had been expected to jump from lightweight to super lightweight after his last fight. Rios, 25, lost his WBA title on the scales on Dec. 2 in New York when he failed to make the 135-pound limit for a Dec. 3 title defense against John Murray.
His weight-cut problems were documented in the debut of a new feature done by HBO Sports that aired first on Feb. 4, “2 Days: Portrait of a Fighter.” HBO had behind-the-scenes footage of Rios’ struggles to attempt to make the weight, which he ultimately failed to do three times. The fight went on, with Rios (29-0-1, 22 KOs) winning by 11th-round stoppage, though he had to surrender his belt because he did not make weight.
Only in boxing...
Guys, that number was accurate because the Times Union Center said so!
I was made privy to an article in which Tim Wilkin of the Times Union, without naming myself or this site (probably because I got Tim's name wrong - whoops!), responded to my criticism of him reporting the 3,527 number as the actual number of people in the crowd for KO at the TU rather than tickets sold:
A couple days later, I heard of a blog post (not on the Times Union website) that said there was no way that there were 3,527 people in the arena. Really?
Yes, Tim. Really.
In case you need a refresher, I presented my case for why 3,527 was a preposterous figure:
My initial and continued estimate of 700 to 800 people at this event on Saturday is, I'm being told by others who were there, me being kind and bad at estimating crowd size. Which, by my own admission, I am. Others have said maybe 1200 or so, which I'd accept. But given how many sections were all but completely empty and all of the empty space on the floor, that number reported by Wilkin is literally impossible.
Tim, who either didn't read the post or wanted to intentionally misrepresent my statements, said that I was claiming 700. Which I wasn't, I said 700-800 but admitted that I was bad at estimating crowd sizes in that range and could be as high as 1200. From his article:
I have been at enough events in the arena -- from basketball to hockey to, now boxing -- to give an accurate head count. And, this was not my head count. This came right from the top, from arena general manager Bob Belber.
Yeah, Tim, but see, that's the problem - you said there were 3,527 people in the arena. From your initial filing:
The fights will be back at the TU Center on April 28. A six-bout card was held at the Arena Saturday night and 3,527 people showed up.
I'm sure Tim and others will claim I'm arguing semantics and nit-picking, but I'm not. There is a BIG difference between telling people what the reported attendance was ("an announced attendance of 3,527") and telling them straight out that "3,527 people showed up." GM Bob Belber, who you quoted, himself acknowledged as much every so slyly.
But first:
Belber was a little ticked to hear that there were people who questioned the announced attendance. He said he does remember a night where there was a crowd of about 700 (maybe less) at a Devils hockey game on a snowy night.
Just one night? To quote myself in my initial reply to that reported attendance, c'mon now. Bob, if you're reading this, I apologize if you're offended that myself and several others in attendance at the event deigned to make our own judgment and exercised some skepticism towards the figure you provided. Unfortunately, sometimes people are going to make observations and say them out loud and they might not run hand in hand with what you'd like other people to hear. There's no reason, though, to be "ticked off" that someone would dare do something like exercise some common sense. Life's too short for all that. Besides, this is a non-issue. Most people will believe you over me anyway, one because you're the GM of the Times Union Center and they don't realize it's your job to do this sort of thing, two because I'm just a dude with a blog, and three because not enough people showed up to the goddamn thing to say either way how many people they think were there.
Besides, even you said:
"Sure, some were comps, and there were probably some people who didn't show up."
I think a lot didn't. I won't go into it again, but I refer you back to what I initially posted. The floor was MAYBE three-quarters filled, sides in front of and behind press row maybe half, to the left and right were barren. The upper sections were completely blocked off. If that's 3,257 people, then wow, we must've been in Dallas Stadium and not realized it!
This part did make me chuckle.
"What would we have to benefit?" Belber said when asked about inflating the number. "People can say whatever they want, everyone has a right to their opinion."
I was there. That count was accurate. And that's all I've got to say about that.
Firstly: what would the General Manager of the Times Union Center have to benefit by perpetuating the number of tickets sold combined with number of tickets given away as comps or circulated through the area as an attendance figure rather than actual physical asses in the seats, just like every other arena and promotion across the country does? SERIOUSLY? It's his job! We're not gonna touch that? Okay then.
Ah well. Appeal to authority rules all, I guess. The good news is Star Boxing will be back in April and the attendance will be even better because they'll have learned so much from this first show about crowd expectations (as distasteful as they may be to some), have more fighters on the card, get better publicity, and have Evander Holyfield in attendance. Which, if the crowd last Saturday was 3,527, should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 screaming fans.
In and out of the ring, Shannon Miller willing to give it all
From Michael Rivest:
It made noise a year ago, no doubt about it. But not enough, if you ask me. Troy heavyweight Shannon Miller (17-5, 9 KOs ), husband and father of two young children, and a local star already cemented in people’s minds as a tough dude with nothing to prove and everything to live for, decided to risk that life by donating half of his liver to save his Uncle Ray.
Despite Miller’s heroism, Uncle Ray died last Thursday. The cancer had spread to his lungs. “I only wish I could have done more,” said Miller.
More? More than give away a piece of your body? “Well, what if I had moved on it sooner, maybe the cancer wouldn’t have spread,” he said.
read more over at the Troy Record
My condolences to Shannon, Shawn, and the entire Miller family. Both Miller brothers will compete at the March 10th Ares Promotions fight card at the Egg.
Video of controversial finish to KO at the TU main event between Joe Hanks and Rafael Pedro
From the Times Union's Sports Desk:
Skip ahead to 0:46 so you can catch the AMAZING transition effect~!
On the replay, it looks like it was Hanks landing a hard and straight left to Pedro's shoulder that dislocated it. I remember that punch and I thought Hanks had completely whiffed on it, but it looks like it hit flush on the ball of the shoulder. Which, well, that'll do it.
Don’t believe the Times Union’s attendance for Saturday’s KO at the TU
Call me old-fashioned, but if you're a reporter that's given a preposterous attendance figure for an event that you attended in person and covered for a major newspaper, it's your duty and responsibility to at the very least express some skepticism. Like say, if an event held in the Times Union Center only had at best 700 or 800 fans present, don't report that 3,527 people showed up.
I was at the same press table as Tim. I don't know him enough to even say "he's a nice guy, but..." so this isn't anything personal. But there is absolutely no way in Hell there were a thousand people at that event, let alone that number he reported. That was the number, I assume, given to him by the promoter. That same promoter also claimed at the weigh-in that 6,000 tickets had been or would be sold.
Let's look at the "center stage" layout that was used for boxing:
In the layout shown above, which is the layout used for professional wrestling and boxing, the maximum capacity is anywhere from 14,000 to 17,000.
First, take out the entire second tier. It was completely blacked off. Also, all those floor seats? They only laid out sections 1-8, and probably about three-quarters (being generous) of what's shown there.
So already, knocking out those seats, we're already at a maximum capacity was probably at or around 8,000. Meaning if that figure Wilkinson reported was accurate, it'd mean the arena was half full. But it wasn't even close.
Let's break it down further.
First tier: let's say sections 101 to 110 were right behind press row (it was either them or sections 116 to 124). Those sections were littered with fans here and there, but were probably about 40% filled (again I'm being very generous). Opposite press row, sections 116 to 124, were about the same if not less. Sections 109 to 115 and sections 125 to 130 were more or less empty. On the left side almost literally; on the right side I would be very kind in saying there were forty people at most.
Then there's the floor. Section two had six people in it. Sections 3 and 6-8 only had the first six or seven rows filled. I only passed Section 4 once and it was completely out of my line of sight, but when I did cross it, it had maybe a few dozen spectators seated at about the scheduled bell time of 7:30pm.
Taking all of that into account, there is absolutely no way in Hell there were 3,527 people at the arena that night. I wish there were, trust me. I think at the next event in April (it's been announced as official), with more local talent and the presence of Evander Holyfield, they might meet that. But they did not on Saturday.
My initial and continued estimate of 700 to 800 people at this event on Saturday is, I'm being told by others who were there, me being kind and bad at estimating crowd size. Which, by my own admission, I am. Others have said maybe 1200 or so, which I'd accept. But given how many sections were all but completely empty and all of the empty space on the floor, that number reported by Wilkin is literally impossible.
Of course Star Boxing and the Times Union center is going to fudge their numbers. That's what promoters do. I have no doubt that there were more than three thousand tickets floating around the area, given to businesses, etcetera. For the first boxing event in fifteen years and in a market like ours, you'd be stupid not to paper the Hell out of the show. It's also not a disastrous result given the reasons I already cited and the need for Star Boxing to gradually build their brand and get fans acquainted with their fighters. As anyone from Ares Promotions to WWE will tell you, building a market for personality-driven combat sports and/or sports entertainment, it's not a sprint.
But that's where reporters are supposed to come in. Just because a promoter or venue reports an attendance figure doesn't mean you can't, as a reporter, use simple observational techniques and common sense to express skepticism as to its accuracy. In fact, I feel that it's really your obligation to, and that Wilkin didn't I can only attribute to him either being very distracted that evening or lazy.
Not happy with decision wins in boxing and MMA? Go start a fight in a bar.
I didn't watch a single minute of the Super Bowl and, for the most part, stayed off Twitter and Facebook all night. It's not because I hate football. Sure, I do take issue with those who call MMA barbaric and dangerous while gathering every Sunday to watch the NFL concussion-fest that takes a heavy physical toll on its participants, whose average life expectancy is anywhere from 53 to 59 years old(!), but I enjoy the occasional game as much as any other red-blooded American male. I may have my issues with the sport, but I don't have an aggressive dislike for it.
The reason I didn't watch the Super Bowl is because after the KO at the TU and UFC 143 on Saturday night, I had my fill of shitty sports fans for the weekend.
I covered Star Boxing's KO at the TU on Saturday nightfor the Knick Ledger and already documented the bad behavior by members of the crowd on this space. After the fights in Albany, I was able to catch the main event of UFC 143. What I saw was Carlos Condit executing a technically and intellectually flawless game plan against a very dangerous and heavily favored Nick Diaz to win the Interim UFC Welterweight Championship. He used the cage and Nick Diaz's flat-footed striking style to his advantage, negating his reach with exceptional footwork and maneuverability while frequently moving back in to engage and out-strike his opponent in all but one round. After five rounds, Condit was given the Unanimous Decision win. Nick Diaz was not happy. In his post-fight interview with Joe Rogan, he complained that Condit ran away from him the entire fight and said he didn't sign up to chase guys that wouldn't fight him. He then claimed, right on the spot, that he was quitting the sport over the decision.
His temper tantrum, fueled by frustration and mental illness, shoveled coal into the boisterous fire of abhorrent sports fans online. Like Diaz, they were vocal and angry, providing nothing except insults and vulgar language to back up their ridiculous claim that Condit "ran away" from Nick Diaz or somehow didn't earn a win.
Needless to say, I agreed with the decision. Rather than recount the reasons why, I'll just send you over to Ben Fowlkes at MMAFighting, who already laid it out plainly yet eloquently. In short, Nick Diaz was out-fought, out-smarted, and as was evidenced by his face after the fight, beat the Hell up by his opponent.
It was a great night to be a combat sports fan, and a frustrating one if you weren't. I put the emphasis on sport because I don't think the latter care much about the sport aspect of it, nor will they ever. You can't call yourself a fan of boxing or MMA and still support the reaction seen and heard on Saturday night. That's not criticism, it's bloodlust.
If you still insist on it, all I can say is that this just isn't the sport for you. If you're one of those people that was unhappy with Carlos Condit's flawless performance and/or the fantastic 10-round battle between Sahib Usarov and Yan Barthelemy at the Times Union Center, I can only suggest you go find something else that's more your speed and fitting to your tastes. Maybe dog fighting or old VHS copies of Faces of Death. Or, better yet, go start a fight in a bar. There's no better view of the action, and it's sure to be violent and end quickly.
Leave the sport to real sports fans.
KO at the TU
KO at the TU highlights local boxing talent - me for the Knick Ledger
Joe Hanks defends title, wins by TKO - Mike Rivest for the Troy Record
My other, non-professional thoughts:
It was actually a really entertaining night. The crowd wasn't nearly what promoters were hoping it would be, but I think that anything running at the Times Union Center is better than what they've been putting on the last few years. It's a great venue for boxing and a larger crowd would have shown that. I think, given time and the proper star power behind it, boxing at the Times Union Center could really take off.
That's the good news. Here's the bad news: some of the fans that were there kind of sucked.
Saturday was my first experience sitting in press row for a fight card. The hard part wasn't not cheering, it was having to keep my mouth shut while a group of drunken slobs behind me literally screamed racial slurs, cursed up a storm, and made homophobic comments during the semi-main event. All this with children within earshot.
The worst part is that they loudly identified themselves as employees of Professional Fire Restoration Services, a major sponsor of the event. They screamed the owner's name every time his commercial came up on the screen, then later in the evening while screaming "hit him with the dirty bomb," "your boyfriend called and wants to know how the fight's going," and "let's go Punjab" at Russian fighter Sahib Usarov, they joked that they were "gonna get fired" by their employer, Daniel "DJ" Johnson. They also, among other things, identified a black fighter as "50 Cent." At one point during intermission, a few of us left press row and returned to find the top of what looked like a milkshake thrown from their area onto our table. It was really disgusting and unfortunate and, unfortunately, marred some really excellent contests for the people around them.
It just sucks that the crowd, at a disappointing 600 to 800 (if that), was overshadowed and perhaps unfairly represented by what was a very minor but very vocal contingent of drunk, racist, homophobic clowns.
Other than that? Good night of fights. Other thoughts:
- Kevin Rooney looked great. There was a strange moment in the post-fight interview, however, when his father and trainer announced with a straight face that he wanted to get his son to fight four times a month. I asked around after he said that and apparently he's serious about that, which is borderline insanity and wouldn't fly with any state athletic commission.
- On the same topic, the reaction Rooney, Jr. got underscores the importance of booking local talent in a market like this. The Albany area unfortunately isn't big enough to warrant sports for the sake of sports. Also, boxing is a personality driven business. To get people into the house, they need to have some investment. The most sure-fire way to get that is with local brand name fighters. As charismatic as headliner Joe Hanks is, the crowd didn't care nearly as much for him as it did the local boys on the undercard.
- The judging was consistent, which is refreshing given how wild it can be (see, MMA fans? It ain't just us). The only score that struck me as a bit wonky was in the semi-main where one judge scored it 98-91 for Usarov. There's no way Barthelemy lost that many rounds; in fact, it was close enough where I actually had it scored 96-93 for Barthelemy, but it was so close and I was distracted enough by the shenanigans behind me that I couldn't fault them for going the other way.
- The Escalera/Brooks fight probably should have been stopped sooner than it was. Realistically, Brooks was out of the running as soon as the second round started. He showed a lot of heart and an iron chin, but that really could have been ended a round sooner. It's one of the things I point to when boxing fans view MMA as barbaric: if this had been, say, an MMA bout, it would have been stopped the first time Brooks went down. Which is why, among other reasons, I think MMA is actually the safer sport of the two. It's a different context, of course, but food for thought in the discussion of long-term damage to combat sports practitioners.
- As mentioned in the article at the Knick Ledger, Ray J was in the house. Swear to God. I immediately thought of my buddy Brian, as we use "oh for the love of Ray J" as a means of conveying exasperation.
- Usarov/Barthelemy, despite the fans' apprehension towards it, was a really great and evenly matched bout. More on their reaction later, because it ties into another rant I have to reaction of Nick Diaz's loss last night to Carlos Condit at UFC 143 and the expectations fans have of combat sports.
KO at the TU tomorrow (Saturday, February 4th) at the Times Union Center in Albany
Tomorrow (Saturday) night is "KO at the TU," the first boxing event in over fifteen years at Albany's Times Union Center (formerly the Pepsi Arena and Knickerbocker Arena).
I'll be covering the event for the Knick Ledger, so keep an eye there and follow @KevinMarshall for live tweets.
From the official site:
Event Details
Boxing returns to the Times Union Center for the 1st time in nearly 15 years!
IBA WORLD TITLE BOUT
Heavyweights—Ten Rounds
Joe “The Future” Hanks, 18-0 (12KO’s) vs. Rafael Pedro, 21-9-1 (15KO’s)
WBO INTERCONTINENTAL WORLD TITLE BOUT
Bantamweights—Ten Rounds
Sahib Usarov, 17-0 (6KO’s) vs. Yan Barthelemy, 12-2 (4KO’s)
Super Middleweights—Eight Rounds
Jason Escalera, 12-0 (11KO’s) vs. Marcus Brooks, 7-8 (3KO’s)
Junior Welterweights—Six Rounds
Darnell Jiles, 8-2-1 (3KO’s) vs. Bryan Abraham, 5-10-2 (5KO’s)
Junior Middleweights—Four Rounds
Kevin Rooney Jr, 2-1 (1KO) vs. Stanley Harvey, 1-1 (1KO)
Other matches are still being determined. Card subject to change.
Why Dana White is right to decline Jon Jones’s offer to fight a Top 10 Heavyweight
Jon Jones was on the MMA Hour with Ariel Helwani and revealed that he offered to jump to Heavyweight for a Superfight against a top 10 fighter in late 2012, sort of like what they did a couple years back when Anderson Silva moved up to Light Heavyweight and destroyed James Irvin and Forrest Griffin in-between Middleweight title defenses.
As MMAFighting.com notes, Dana and Lorenzo weren't thrilled with the idea:
"I actually asked Dana and Lorenzo, could I take a fight for the fans at the end of 2012," Jones said. "I figured beating Henderson and Rashad, there would be a period where we'd figure out who I'm going to fight next, and during that period, at the end of 2012, I asked to fight a heavyweight -- a Top 10 heavyweight."
...
"Dana and Lorenzo didn't think that was the best for me to do right now," Jones said. "They wanted me to continue at the light heavyweight division."
I drew the comparison between Silva and Jones only because thus far in his reign Jones has shown the same level of dominance against the best of his division in the same way Silva has for the past few years.
There are, however, some differences that need to be acknowledged. First, there's the fact that there's a big discrepancy between Middleweight and Light Heavyweight in terms of both drawing power and depth of talent. The Middleweight division has improved leaps and bounds from where it was four years ago, but despite having the best pound for pound fighter as its champion (or perhaps in part because of it) is still something of a journeyman's division. There are a crop of what I would consider "natural" 185 fighters finally breaking through, but for years the division was occupied by guys moving up in weight because they're too slow for 170 and others who couldn't cut it at 205. Even today, the #2 and #3 fighters at that weight, Chael Sonnen and Michael Bisping, are examples of the latter.
So while Jon Jones has been dominant, he still has some contenders in a much deeper division. That said, as ridiculous as it may sound, he's almost there. He's beaten Bader, Rua, Jackson, and Machida in less than one calendar year. After he gets through Evans and Henderson (which I have a strong suspicion he will given his utter dominance of the other fighters), he'll have cleaned out the top 10 of the Light Heavyweight division. Who will be left to contend? Phil Davis is a prospect, but showed last Saturday that he's not quite there yet. The only other fighters who could even be considered top 10 - Thiago Silva and Antonio Rogerio Nogueira - are not likely to get in a position of title contention anytime soon (if ever again), let alone stand a chance against him.
The frequency with which Jon Jones has fought has made him an MVP for the promotion, but the UFC sort of shot themselves in the foot by overbooking him, because he's run through every potential contender they've put in front of him and now they're in a scenario where he likely won't have any contenders after the Spring. Dominant champions are good for a spell, but their drawing power is severely diminished once the fans can no longer buy opponents as viable contenders. That's why Brock Lensar was the UFC's top draw: it wasn't just because of his mainstream notoriety from pro wrestling, but also (and more importantly) because he was seen as a beatable monster and every challenge he faced held some degree of intrigue. With Jones, each successive title defense seems more and more like an inevitability, as it has with Anderson Silva and to a lesser extent Georges St-Pierre.
For those same reasons, I understand Dana's refusal to let Jones fight a top ten heavyweight. That division is a mess as it is and they've lost Lesnar to retirement. The influx of Strikeforce Heavyweights is promising but lends to it an air of uncertainty, particularly with fighters like Josh Barnett and Allistair Overeem, both of whom the UFC is going to be booking with baited breath and hoping they don't piss hot for a Commission drug test. Having a Light Heavyweight, even its champion, move up in weight for one or two fights and potentially sabotage another contender wouldn't be good business. Anderson Silva fighting James Irvin and Forrest Griffin was one thing, because Irvin was never going to contend and Griffin by that time was all but done as a contender and just around for name value and the occasional superfight (see also: Franklin, Rich). Having Jones do the same would probably draw a good buyrate, but at the risk of bringing depth and legitimacy of an entire division into question.
Still, one has to ask: if/when the time comes where Jon Jones has beaten literally every single potential contender, what the Hell are they going to do with the guy?