Kevin Marshall's America
Inside of the White House on May 1st, hours before the rest of the world knew, they watched. Absent was the undeterred exuberance displayed by people too young to remember the tragedy that shook us on September 11th, 2001. There were was no whooping and hollering, no chants of “U-S-A!”, no college kids pumping their fists. There weren’t any smiles or high-fives; no gloating or posturing.
Instead, the President, his Vice-President, his Secretary of State, his Generals and staff sat in a room, silent, a few mortified. Some in the room had worked years, or even a full decade, to reach this moment. They sat watching, somber and attentive, as we killed an enemy of the State.
The further removed we are from the situation, the easier it is to be embarrassingly crass in reaction to an assassination.
In this time of excessive pride bordering on or passing the line into jingoism, I’m ashamed of the reactions that most of my fellow countrymen had to this event. Of course he deserved it, but there’s a part of us that should be better than to take joy and revelry in doing the things we don’t want to do. Unfortunately that’s absent in too many of us, to the point where I haven’t logged into Twitter or Facebook in nearly twenty-four hours. I don’t like scolding people like children, even if they act like it. I’d rather just know it’s there and not see it, because that’s easier.
Share it!
78 Responses to The ugly side of victory
Leave a Reply
STALK ME
Well said Kevin. I, for one, appreciated the fact that the president referred to the removal of bin Laden as “welcome” news – not “joyous” as some media were proclaiming. The death of another human being is never a cause for partying… relief, yes… celebration, no. The views of young adults whooping it up outside the White House were a bit too much like the footage of the people in the Middle East celebrating after 9-11. I’d like to think we are better than that.
Well said.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m copy-pasting something that’s been shared and reshared all over Facebook these past few days (at least amongst my peers).
“I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that”
-Martin Luther King Jr.
That’s exactly why I never go on Twitter or facebook!
Sofia –
That quotation about Martin Luther King was never said by the civil rights leader.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/fake-martin-luther-king-jr-quote_n_857044.html
By the way, a quote about Mark Twain enjoying reading obituaries is also a fake quotation.
Putting yourself above it all.. go figure
By ending one life.. we may have saved so many more..
Osama was a figure head, a calling.. someone who could attack america and then thumb his nose in our face for 9 years. He inspired many poor young men and women to join al queda. Whether you rejoice or not, cutting the head off of the snake will hopefully help to bring our service men and women back home sooner. It will hopefully help to at least halt recruitment of poor men and women in the middle east to join the jihad and instead focus on joining the spread of democracy taking place.
The potential preservation of life, both of young men and women in the middle east, as well as our troops in harms way. Is reason to celebrate as much as one wants.
“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” Killing a human (or having a hand in the act) is distasteful business. I think few would celebrate it if they had to participate in it on a regular basis. I stood ready many nights and brought harm on some, but I don’t wave it around proudly like a flag.
Thanks for coming back, Kevin.
I saw your post in the wee morning hours of May 1, but did not witness what you were likely witnessing in the exuberance and celebration.
I’m just going to say that I’m sorry, it took a few hours for me to fully understand what you were saying in your post. Here I thought I had outgrown knee-jerk arguments.
Yes, some of the celebrating was inappropriately over the top — but I don’t agree that “most of my fellow countrymen” fall into that category.
Most people I know are grateful that Osama is gone and are moving quietly — and somewhat cautiously — on with their lives.
As for that photo, you’re seeing what the administration chose for you to see. It’s a moment frozen in time that was selected to convey a message — and it looks like it worked. None of us know what happened before, or after, or whether here was a little fist bumping in the Situation Room.
interesting cultural difference- here in America when we kill mass murderers or, in this case, a coward who perpetrated the most gruesome attack on American soil in our nation’s history- we celebrate.
Also, most of us don’t normally write melodramatic blogs about how their fellow citizens sicken them so horribly that we almost logged off of twitter for a full 24 hours during such a historically momentous occasion! Most of us prefer to take in the news, celebrate and think about those who perished in 9/11 and those still serving in harm’s way…for most of us our thoughts and ink aren’t being spilled over ourselves at the moment.
Sorry you’re so disappointed- people cheered as heartily as when Hitler was killed, Japan was brought to its knees and at the deaths of red coat wearing Brits and Hessians during our creation- there is no moral content to the celebrations- and you are the rare insufferable person who takes the time to make this event about a feigned moral superiority.
Please go back to covering ultimate wrestle champion stuff…
people cheered as heartily as when Hitler was killed
No, they didn’t, because he committed suicide. They cheered the end of the war, but this wasn’t the end of a war. Far from it. That’s been reiterated time and again.
Clearly I hit a nerve, though, but with the type of person I’m offending I can only conclude that I might be onto something.
FWIW, I agree w you
all I will say is SHAME ON YOU K. Marshall….I see ZERO reason to take anyone to task who wanted to or felt the need to cheer when that ANIMAL was taken off this earth…he didn’t even deserve the title of Human Being, nor do any other self-exploding wanna be’s in any country whose sole purpose in life has become to blow themselves up to kill anyone within their general vacinity….whether it be a so-called MAN, WOMAN and EVEN CHILD….I hope he saw the bullet coming at his demented head!!!!
He started it,We ended it!!! HE is responsible for EVERYTHING in between.Americans were celebrating the fact that a chapter was closed,not his death.
I agree with Rob on this one. You can’t use a still shot to tell of the mood before, during and after this military operation. What exactly were they looking at? It would be like a still shot of Mission Control 20 minutes before we safely landed on the moon.
To quote Paul Eldridge, “To judge a man’s character by only one of its manifestations is like judging the sea by a jugful of its water”.
You know i was a senior in Highschool when 9/11 happened. I still remember having the morning news come on after we had gotten word that a plane had crashed into one of the towers of the World Trade Center and then watched in absolute horror as another crashed into it live right before our eyes in that classroom.
Every student in that school was glued to the TV for the entire day, some even went home to check on loved ones working in NYC, all of us wondering the same thing. Was this an accident? How could something like this be an accident? If it wasn’t who was behind it?
When it was made clear this was an act of Terrorism and the driving force behind it was al Qeada and Osama bin Laden specificly, you can’t even imagine the hatred I felt. Maybe we aren’t the best country as the rest of the world thinks but I’d like to think that we aren’t an evil nation bent on world domination. No one deserves to feel fear because of the country they live in.
Am i celebrating in the streets like this is New years eve? No. But i for one am very content with the thought of that man who killed not only thousands in our own country, in our own STATE, but killed 10’s of thousands world wide as well many of his own faith, is dead. An eye for an eye makes the world blind, but in this case ill let it slide.
That should have said “Maybe we arent the best country, as this is the view most of the world takes about us”
aka thinking that we suck.
I am extremely disturbed by videos of my fellow Americans dancing in the streets.
All I could think about were similar videos of Middle Easterners after 9/11.
I would like us to show we are better than that.
The two quotes above in posts #2 and #6 (no matter who is given credit) say it all.
Should point out: Chuck is right in that the MLK quote is misattributed, but only the first sentence. The rest:
is still MLK.
I would like to add something in regards to your comment about people being too young to remember, however.
My daughter was nine years old on 9/11. She is now a college sophomore, the same age as many of the the revelers.
She told me that she used to have nightmares about Bin Laden.
For many of these young people, he was their bogeyman.
So his death brings a relief that we as adults perhaps cannot comprehend. So perhaps, somewhat in their defense, this was needed in their eyes as a release of 10 years of nightmares.
Just a reminder to folks: I can’t allow any comments with curse words or personal insults per TU policy. I’ve had to trash a few comments only because they violate the former; try re-wording without vulgarities. Thanks!
So Kevin let me get this straight!? Even though Awesomedude was wrong with his historical knowledge about the death of Hitler, you don’t think the citizens of the U.S/world wouldn’t have been celebrating the death of the most infamous man “who caused over 40 million deaths” who had ever set foot on this planet. Are you serious! People in the U.S and the world were celebrating multiple things at the end of WWII including the death of one Adolf Hitler. So try to remove yourself from your “morale-High horse” and by the way you can take your Morales and stick’em where the sun doesn’t shine “MORALES DON’T IMPLY TO SOMEONEWHO DOESN”T HAVE ANY HIMSELF”. I personally wouldn’t have celebrated the way that many young people in this country celebrated the other day, but they as “Free” American citizens have that right. To be quite honest with you Mr. Marshall our country needs to stop playing “nice” with the rest of the world and start acting like the most powerful/richest nation in the world while we still have a chance. Being the “morally” correct country that we try to “pretend” that we are isn’t getting us any where. Better yet, I wish we could have taken Bin Laden alive so that the families of the victims of 9/11 “who by they way didn’t receive proper burial, but this scumbag did, and then our government was concerned about pissing off Muslims around the world if he didn’t receive a proper burial” could stone him to death/ or better yet could have him dragged him through the streets and strung up like one Benito Mussolini and his wife. Would this solve there pain, no, but it would show the rest of the world not to mess with the U.S. Is this better KEVIN?!
You would feel different if it were one of your family members killed in the attacks.
I can’t blame people for getting all “U-S-A” and all that. I pesonally didn’t, but I can understand why they did.
Well said John.
Us neanderthals have to be told right from wrong.
Thanks Kevin for reminding us how primitive we are. And what it takes to be proper.
We should just play nice with everyone and be morally superior like you.
Our response to a mass murderers death is what gives me hope that we still have a backbone and that we’ll stand up to evil.
You’re condemnation of people’s reaction is elitist and arrogant. Has anyone judged your reaction to the news of Bin Laden’s death? Has anyone said that you should have been more celebratory? Has anyone told you how to act? You don’t know how people are connected to 9/11. Each and every person has a story. To some it may mean alot more than to others. No one needs bloggers telling them how they should act.. Maybe you should go down to the WTC site and tell rejoicers to go home and act more humanely.
Have you become so, so bitter, that you begrudge people celebrating the end of a madman who has terrorized our country for over a decade and who has perpetrated the worst act of terrorism on domestic soil that our generation has ever seen? You might feel different if someone you loved went to work at the WTC that morning, and never came home. You might feel different, if your uncle was the one who went through tax records of those killed for WEEKS afterwards. You might feel different if you had brother who could never work again because of all of the damage in his lungs from what he inhaled while volunteering during the rescue efforts of the aftermath of 9/11. You might feel different if you had a child who constantly awaken in cold sweats due to nightmares of Bin Laden.
But then again, maybe you wouldn’t, because, after reading this post, it’s hard to believe that you have any sort of empathy for those affected by the devistating events of 9/11 and the aftermath. Yes, killing Bin Laden does not mean the end of Al-Queda, everyone gets that. But, what YOU don’t get is how powerfully an event like this can affect people. All the tragic deaths, the nightmares, the emotional turmoil, the unrelenting health problems; with the death of Bin Laden, those affected, in ANY way, get a sense now that dealing with all of that wasn’t all in vain. Shame on you for trying to make them feel that that isn’t reason to celebrate.
Reactions of 9/11 Victims’ Families from across the country:
http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/article/850030–mother-of-9-11-victim-reacts-to-death-of-bin-laden
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/9-11-victims-families-react-to-bin-laden-s-death-25095439
http://hinsdale.patch.com/articles/hinsdale-911-victim-remembered
http://bronx.ny1.com/content/special_reports/911_a_decade_later/138412/9-11-a-decade-later–wtc-victims–families-show-mixed-reaction-at-bin-laden-death
http://elkridge.patch.com/articles/reactions-to-bin-ladens-death-from-local-911-victims-families
http://wantagh.patch.com/articles/candlelight-vigil-remembers-911-victims
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7364703n
And there are many, many more similar in tone if you peruse Google news or any news sites. Prescribing the party-boy atmosphere I condemned to the victims’ families is as unfair to them as it is to this discussion.
Kev –
I usually agree with you on a lot of things. I’m not saying I don’t agree now, but let me put some perspective on this. For nearly ten years now we have lived in fear – a fear we were not accustomed to. A fear that was brought to us in a shocking display of hatred and fury. For nearly a decade the face of that fear was that of Osama Bin Laden.
Those who remember the pre-9/11 world vividly were suddenly ripped from their storybook world of freedom and happiness and plunged into advanced TSA screenings and shoe bombers. The minor world hindrances like Cuba and North Korea’s antics were dwarfed by this previously unknown to the public threat.
Many gathered in support sessions riddled with disbelief, anger and dread. All along, this orchestrator lingered in the shadows, hidden but making his presence known. His recordings taunted us, like a door creaking in the hallway in the dead of night. The specter of evil is there, but we cannot seem to slay him.
Sunday’s outbursts of celebration were for an end of such mental oppression. Knowing that the face we have all come to loathe was finally destroyed was cause for rejoicing. Those who actually experienced the loss of a loved one are right in cheering the death of this tyrant.
Me? Well, my dad was a Navy Commander who wasn’t deployed to Afghanistan even though he wanted to go. My wife’s cousin was one of the two Army soldiers who found Thomas Hamill (Jim’s on the right in the famous pic, which was also taken with his camera). For them, I am glad. Did I dance in the streets? No, but I made sure to take a deep breath and smile.
Famous Pic of Thomas Hamill (My wife’s cousin Jim on the right).
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040503/040503_hamillnew_hmed_8a.h2.jpg
Bob – Right and understandable. But, as I’ve reiterated, that isn’t the sort of reaction I’m condemning.
No one is telling people that they have to go out and “be a party boy”. You’re overgeneralizing in an attempt to defend your narrow point of view. People will celebrate how they see fit, whether it’s with a quite sigh of relief or with a raging party. Who are YOU to judge them for how they choose to celebrate? Where do you get off being so elitist, arrogant, and morally superior?
No one is telling people that they have to go out and “be a party boy”.
Then what is your argument exactly? Because it’s not what was written in the blog post, since that’s what I was specifically condemning. There is such a thing as inappropriate behavior, and if calling peopel out on it makes me arrogant, then so be it.
Prescribing the party-boy atmosphere I condemned to the victims’ families is as unfair to them as it is to this discussion. From your comment with the links to other reactions.
Right, but that’s what I condemned. Then you (and others) came back with stuff like:
Yes, I begrudge people who celebrate with a party boy atmosphere, because it was inappropriate. Then you said I might feel different if I were one of the families, so I provided examples of how the families weren’t behaving that way and aren’t who I was talking about.
Which you apparently now agree with?
So if you agree that the party boy atmosphere is inappropriate – which I described in detail in the post itself and is what I was condemning – then what exactly are you arguing? Is it just anger as a result of misreading the initial blog post?
There are some families that ARE behaving that way. As a native New Yorker, photos of such celebrations from my own friends and family are popping up all over my facebook and twitter accounts. I think You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Let people celebrate how they will.
Horrible job trying to cover your tracks Kevin, because for every “morally” in “your eyes” correct way of reacting to this scum of the earths death, I can find just as many 9/11 families who were celebrating/and remembering their loved ones. I personally have a friend who lost his brother, because of this man and I wouldn’t dare tell him how he should react, which by the way was joyful. We get it/we know that his death doesn’t bring back the loved ones/end the war on terror that were lost on 9/11 and there after, but you or anyone else shouldn’t tell us how to react to this man’s death. This country, which I’m so grateful to be a citizen of has for far too long done the “morally” correct thing “for the most part” and have been scrutinized for whatever decision we make. To hell with the rest of the world and what they think of us, because Kevin, if you remember from your social studies/history classes in high school/college at one point we didn’t care about the rest of the world!!!!!!! Whether you like it or not Kevin, thats what made us the GREAT country that we were and still have a chance of restoring. I respect and love other cultures/religions and if you want to be part of our country then by all means come along for the ride, but Human beings/governments who bring about misery and distruction have no right to be part of this world.
Who is everybody to judge these people? Everybodys got a different experience living in this country and with 9/11, terrorism etc… So this didnt bring up the same jubilation in anyone here that it did in some other people? Is everybody supposed to think and act the same way in this country?
I mean dont get me wrong, youd never find me in public waving a giant foamy finger.
Various tribes, and some governments, in the Persian Gulf area have been sawing off heads since before we started to measure time. They’re not going to change. I wish there was a way to keep them from bringing their many psychoses on the road. There is not. Think of Bin Laden as the tip of the iceberg.
I’m happy to have Army and USAF friends back here on US soil, and I’m grateful for their service. I’ll celebrate quietly only when they’re all home with their families.
“….human beings/governments who bring about misery and destruction have no right to be a part of this world.”
Wow – thank goodness the United States has never brought about misery and destruction to any other country.
What bothers me the most is that we as a group of people celebrate someone’s death, stress remembrance of the victims of 9/11, but what about the victims of *our* wars? Wars where we wildly thrashed about the Middle East, killing an absurd amount of civilians? When do we remember those victims, the collateral damage? Or is it job well done, regardless of the carnage, Bin Laden is dead?
There’s nothing for me to be happy about here. But at the same time, that’s not surprising, because I don’t for a second believe in American Exceptionalism. Go figure.
So I agree with you completely Kevin. I’m sure you’re not taking the “shame shame on you” bunk to heart, because you seem to be a pretty logical person.
Also:
“if you remember from your social studies/history classes in high school/college at one point we didn’t care about the rest of the world!!!!!!! Whether you like it or not Kevin, thats what made us the GREAT country that we were and still have a chance of restoring”
LOL, I mean really. I don’t even have words for this one, but I suppose there’s no point in arguing because if someone truly believes the above statement, there’s likely not open to reason. At least I got a legitimate laugh out of it.
Kevin – You condemn others for celebrating our country’s military might yet your blog photo shows you striking a fighting pose in front of the American flag. Hypocrite.
@Don, seriously? A requirement of being a patriotic American is now to celebrate death? And when did Kevin condemn the military, or the military’s actions?
Taken from the post itself: “Of course he deserved it,…”
NO ONE is condemning the military’s actions, only the public’s reactions. Just as I’ve never condemned soldiers in Iraq, but I have never for a second supported the war.
I will say that you and many others here are doing a fine job of illustrating and driving home Kevin’s point.
I agree, Kevin, as well as with what Cihan said about the thousands of civilian victims of the war. I’m relieved he is gone but it really does disturb me that people are having parties to celebrate his murder. While I do think there is a difference between celebrating his murder and others celebrating the 9/11 attacks (a huge difference), I still think the former is in bad taste. And to respond to what Megan said – there are a lot of people who lost family in the attacks who aren’t partying in the streets. To imply that someone can’t understand because they didn’t lose a loved one is self righteous – I think all of America understands the horror and tragedy of that day. Which is why bookending it with a drunken celebration seems so inappropriate.
Well you have Cihan on your side. Be proud of that.
In reading articles throughout the internet, many of the detainee’s who provided us vital information in locating Osama Bin Laden were captured on the field of Battle in Iraq and Afghanistan. Al Queda operatives who brought their war against the west to the battle fields of Iraq and Afhganistan to kill US troops.
Better there than here Cihan. And I’m sure that the 25 million men and women who no longer live under a dicatorship in Iraq and the millions of men and women who’s lives have improved in Afhganistan after ridding the country of the taliban agree with you. America has thorughout history been the greatest liberator in the history of this planet. It’s too damn bad you don’t like it and feel ashamed of your country.
When the youth took to the streets in Iran to protest the sham election of the mad man. They shouted for America to release a statement and support their cause. Why??? Be thankful you are “free” to be ashamed of your country.
BTW
Thanks for finding something to annoy people with at a time when 99% of the people, deomcrat and republicans alike finally had something we could all feel good about.
You remind me of a pesky RA in College that is intently trying to locate the party and ruin everyone’s fun. How you could find something negative in the hours following this monumental news, amazes me. At least you have everyone reading/commenting on the blog.. right?
Much like I posted on Sofia’s blog, where hardly anything ever gets posted, ironically. It’s everyones right to view and percieve this as THEY see fit. Awesomedude said it well in his post. What would Dr King have rather we’d done regarding the Revolutionary War. civil war, (um, it freed the slaves), WW1, WW2, nothing? You all have you’re right to an opinion, but for some to say an opinion is wrong or shouldn’t be voiced is well, pretty sad.
Bin Laden was given far more leeway/respect than he ever deserved or accorded anyone he had a hand in heniously murdering, men, women, children. From bombing of embassies, barracks, the Cole, flight 93 and the TWTC none were allotted proper burial, some couldn’t even be found. I’d love to shake the hand of the seals that brought the SOB to justice. He should not have been washed, prayed over and give a proper burial, IMO. He was the living devil. I won’t forget what he did to the people of the world, the USA and NYC, not ever.
I did not take to the streets to celebrate, but I certainly will not condemn those who have. The intense looks of the people in the photo was more than likely because they were watching American troops in harms way. I can assure you that most of our troops did celebrate. The fact that you were so traumatized that you couldn’t log into facebook is hilarious. You state that as if that is real suffering. Suffering is serving your country overseas and being happy that justice was served, only to stumble across a blogger who never served a day in his life judge you for celebrating.
I believe the celebrations are perfectly appropriate in this context. Bin Laden was a criminal responsible for the mass murder of over 3,000 innocent civilians. He had remained at large almost ten years threatening and likely actively facilitating further such crimes against innocent civilians. For the past 7 years we as a nation have expended vast amounts of blood and treasure in various misadventures that have not achieved justice or security.
Bin Laden was killed in a daring, limited engagement that killed only him and a few in his inner circle.
I don’t see the celebrations as jingoism or some perverse blood lust. I see the celebrations as justifiable pride that the perpetrator of these crimes has been finally brought to justice (however rough that justice may have been) and pride in the manner in which it was done. (C’mon, you have to admit those Navy SEALS are some badass dudes!)
After 10 years in which we have made no obvious progress in the “War on Terror” and have had to endure countless indignities both large and small because of that war, for just a moment many folks felt that we had triumphed over evil in a way in which we could be proud.
And if you can’t see the difference between people celebrating Bin Laden being capped by a Navy SEAL and people celebrating 9-11, I can’t help you there.
All you that support K-Marsh can go back and put your heads in the sand…just don’t come crying when AFTER you dontate money to all “those” impoverished countries and “those” supposed innocent civies who were killed or wounded, would also be the first ones in line to kill you at the drop of a dime…will be too late for sympathy from those who realize we are not dealing with human beings…..as I said earlier…I hope that he saw every second left in what was left of his (in)human(e) life and what was about to happen
just wondering if any of the patriots here who love their country so much will help their fellow countrymen down here in alabama? we have a mess on our hands. thanks.
p.s. cihan, please stop quoting people and then saying you got a good laugh from it. you sound very elitist and that kind of attitude is one of the main reasons why people can’t have an open discussion without it turning hateful.
How many of our servicepeople were killed, and how much money was spent on the military, additional security measures, the cleanup of the tower, and EVERYTHING related to 9/11. Let them get all the other most wanteds and maybe then I’ll care.
Yeah, yeah…Our nasty imperialist, greedy country brought 9/11 on itself, and Osama deserved a trial which included a lengthy and expensive process of detention and lawyering (are these words?)…Let’s sing the liberal anthem…Which applies up until you see some “white trash” person in Walmart dressed a certain way, and you secretly wish that all such people could be shot and or sterlized so they can’t reproduce. Then, all of your so-called compassion disappears.
I believe Osama was mentally ill, and he was obviously a danger to many others. He was a worldwide guru for many people who hurt others. He lived a full, glorious and successful life beyond most of us will ever have before he went into hiding…
I don’t think anyone said he shouldn’t have been killed (boy this got off the rails quick). Bin Laden was way too dangerous to house and keep alive, and doing so would have undone a lot of the progress that’s been done in dismantling the worldwide al Qaeda network. As I said in the previous post, terrorism will continue but in a very real sense the death of Bin Laden does strike a blow to that specific organization which is unique in that it prided itself in organizing itself into “cells” but was also still a very real cult of personality.
Bridget - Thanks for reminding me; I’d mentioned it in the previous post but forgot to in this one.
Alabama Relief:
– Donate
– Volunteer
Those who prefer to help with your thumbs can also make a $10 donation to help victims from last week’s tornadoes that swept through the South by texting “REDCROSS” to 90999.
I don’t think the argument is fair in saying how awful it was that Middle Easterners cheered after 9/11–thousands of innocent people were killed, not just a single man as in this instance. It is far different to cheer and show joy after the deaths of thousnads of people then after the death of one man who was the mastermind of killing thousands. I think it’s fine that people celebrated the end of a nearly 10-year long manhunt against someone who did something so horrible and who was capable of doing it again.
Cihan are you for real!? It’s quite obvious that you don’t know a thing about U.S/World history and because of our Gov’t’s “morally” correct view/worrying about what other’s think of us, history is repeating itself. All great empires/countries rise and fall for particular reasons, ours is just crumbling for a lack of a back bone.
This is priceless!!!!!!!!! What bothers me the most is that we as a group of people celebrate someone’s death, stress remembrance of the victims of 9/11, but what about the victims of *our* wars? Wars where we wildly thrashed about the Middle East, killing an absurd amount of civilians? When do we remember those victims, the collateral damage? Or is it job well done, regardless of the carnage, Bin Laden is dead?
There’s nothing for me to be happy about here. But at the same time, that’s not surprising, because I don’t for a second believe in American Exceptionalism. Go figure.
Well Cihan you have heard of Charles Darwin, right?! Its called survival of the fittest and it just sucks to be them. “Our wars” provide you the life style that you are accustomed to, and guess what its not a secret club “anyone can join” as long as you behave like a civilized adult.
Let us also remember that one of our choppers went down during that time, and no one was sure what kind of weaponry, ammunition, manpower, etc. that Osama may have had on his compound. Let us remember that there were children in the home that no one wanted to hurt…and innocent women that he was using as a human shield. I think the image may depict their feelings about those people…not so much Osama.
Plus, I mean, they were telling us for years that he lived in some cave in some crazy location 12,000 feet above sea level (or some crud). I believed that. And then, here he was, in a residential neighborhood somewhere in a home surrounded by 10-20 foot concrete walls below a mess of barbed wire. That’s shocking in and of itself. Like, wow, the Pakistani people were actually lying to us MORE than we even suspected. Holy crud, billions of dollars spent, lives lost…crazy defecits, people in financial turmoil…because of these traitors we’ve been helping. Yeah, that’s mortifying.
A. - They had to have known, and for what it’s worth it’s been suspected for some time that he was in Pakistan. While some people might be under a false impression, the US government knows exactly what they’re dealing with when it comes to Pakistan: a regime that will say, do, and get in bed with anything that they think will keep them in power, regardless of whether or not that jives with everything else they’re doing. Hence, they openly “cooperate” with the United States in the war on Terror, but also knowingly house (or at the very least don’t look all that damn hard) for Bin Laden.
I’m the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist, but I find it very hard to swallow that Bin Laden was being moved into residential areas and in particular large bunkers and nobody in the Pakistani government was aware of it. The official story will go down as a “tipster” from Kuwait telling them where he was, but there’s little doubt in my mind that Pakistani intelligence gave him up because he’d become more of a liability than an asset…particularly in light of the activity in nearby countries in the last six months.
It is hard to believe any decent human being is actually enjoying a death, but this country was ripped apart a decade ago, and I believe people are entitled to relief from the deliberate, selfish torture/abuse of mankind.
Yeah, they thought he was in Pakistan…just over the border with Afghanistan. Not that far in within a town with two Pakistani military regiments and less than two miles away from what was called the “West Point” of Pakistan.
I wish someone would have said, well…our intelligence and intuition points us to this mountainous region with a network of hidden caves miles and miles from civilization where it is impossible to find anyone…BUT, just in case, why don’t we check all of the settled areas first. In all of this time, that could have been accomplished.
thank you. i am happy he is dead, but the war isn’t over, i will celebrate once we have a v-t day. i am okay that others did celebrate, but i had been in tuscaloosa for two days piling dead pets into a truck for incineration right before the news broke. between the royal wedding and the death of bin laden, the 300+ dead in my state received little notice. there seems to be a real phoniness attached to this surge of patriotism when i am standing amidst rubble and destroyed lives and am relying on kid rock and charlie sheen for disaster relief.
Kevin,
I do not think you are on a moral horse or think you are better than anyone because of the opinion you expressed. I share your opinion. As a christian, I cannot rejoice in the death of another no matter how horrible that person may have been in life. I do not condemn anyone else for reacting to the situation they way they feel is right, it’s just not me. To rejoice in the death of Osama makes me feel like I would be no better than those who rejoiced in the death of the 9/11 victims. Thank you for sharing your opinion Kevin.
-HTG
Rob Madeo’s point, comment #8 is well constructed.
I was neither turned off nor impressed with the jubilation events or chants of USA.
But at the same time I am not going to pretend that by any moral code, religious or not that this was not satisfying. My only lack of satisfaction is in not seeing his dead body.
The news showed that same picture and explained it was taken when they were waiting to hear word about where the mission was at. It was suppose to have been a 30-35 min mission and this was @ the 40 min point and OBama was waiting to hear from the CIA Director. I really think we all have our own RIGHT to react/celebrate in whatever way sits within ourselves and not JUDGE on how others do. Keep in mind what this monster did for years and years and years. Kevin, what I heard on day one and again read this morning was that one of the prisoners gave up OBL’s courier, stating he was his right-hand man and most likely living w/him (he was), who they then followed/tailed for six months and he lead them right to the compound. I find it hard to believe after a decade they now gave him up. We are all entitled to our opinions and theories, as this blog is evidence to, but we really shouldn’t start condemning and getting on our high horses judging what others are doing… or not doing… – leave that to God.
I know it’s off topic, but Bridget, hasbn’t your governor asked the Feds for assistance? I thought they might have learned a lot out of Katrina?
HTG- I respect your opinion, but for the love of god please don’t bring religion or “god” into this argument. We as human beings are considered Humane if we eliminate a rabid/physically hurt animal when it is suffering. So lets just say that Mr. Bin Laden/every other rapist/murderer would be considered a rabid animal that needed to be eliminated. I mean that would be the humane thing to do, right?!
John-
I respect your opinion, but please don’t tell me whether or not to bring religion into this argument.
HTG
Comment 43/44: I agree, Mr. Marshall’s main goal as a blogger is to get people to read and comment on his blog, regardless of how what he posts makes him appear. Mission accomplished on this one.
“Better there than here Cihan. And I’m sure that the 25 million men and women who no longer live under a dicatorship in Iraq and the millions of men and women who’s lives have improved in Afhganistan after ridding the country of the taliban agree with you. America has thorughout history been the greatest liberator in the history of this planet. It’s too damn bad you don’t like it and feel ashamed of your country.”
Daniel,
Better there than here, because clearly an American life is worth more than the life of another human somewhere else? That’s nice. Also, I question how much you actually know about Afghanistan. The Taliban was hardly “gotten rid” of, as they’re still going quite strong, so you clearly know very little about the region, its peoples, or anything about it. And as for your historical mentions, your comments are opinion, which is fine, but it bothers me that you push them off as fact, which they are certainly not.
“Well Cihan you have heard of Charles Darwin, right?! Its called survival of the fittest and it just sucks to be them. “Our wars” provide you the life style that you are accustomed to, and guess what its not a secret club “anyone can join” as long as you behave like a civilized adult.”
Yeah, survival of the fittest, that’s very Humans Rights-y of you. I’m also glad to know that our current wars are providing for my lifestyle, which of course you know nothing about. I guess I missed the memo where jingoism is necessary for living modestly in modern society. I know I’m particularly excited to be part of the generation that will be handed the bill for paying off the absurd amount of debt from our wars, which of course were necessary. I also think you probably don’t understand the meaning of American Exceptionalism, nor have any idea why it’s fallacy.
Bridget, if it’s elitist to laugh at a completely absurd comment, one that is both factually incorrect and so drenched in patriotic drivel, then color me elitist.
Kevin, I understand your point of view, but I also agree with some of the other commenters that it’s a bit off-putting. Here’s an article that may shed some light on why certain groups (many college students now) celebrated on Sunday night. While I personally wasn’t celebrating and feel it’s more of a somber time, I don’t judge those who were celebratory.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/04/bin.laden.911.generation.react/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
And by the way, I am proud of my country when it does good, but am ashamed of it when it does not.
If patriotism means I must unequivocally support aggressive foreign policy, among other things, which seems to be the implication that many here are making, then I am not your kind of patriot and frankly don’t care.
Cihan, Oh I know what an “AMERICAN” is!!!! I also know that America is a big mixed salad of religions,ethnicities,nationalities and opinions and for the most part we as American’s have learned to live with one another.
Talking about LOL, this is good “If it’s elitist to laugh at a completely absurd comment, one that is both factually incorrect and so drenched in patriotic drivel, then color me elitist. I would love for you to tell me how I was “factually incorrect” in my argument!!!! Believe me Cihan, your barking up the wrong tree if you want to start debating about American and World history and about U.S aggressive foreign policy. Our 1st president warned us about getting involved with foreign affairs and the dangers associated with it, but somtimes the trouble finds you whether it be “warrented or unwarrented.” So I would rather have a government with an aggressive foreign policy instead of being caught on our heels like we did during 9/11. Our government is in charge of protecting AMERICAN INTERESTS AND AMERICAN INTERESTS ALONE.
@JaYK – You completely misinterpreted a simple, two sentence comment. And, like other extremists, you twisted the message to meet your agenda. I did not say or imply that a requirement of patriotic Americans is to celebrate death, This is a free country (thank you veterans and current service men and women) and people can mark this event however they choose.
My point is that Kevin promotes himself as a proud, FIGHTING American. Therefore, he should not condemn or judge others for celebrating their American fighters. BTW he should not be promoting himself as a local treasure either.
“Our government is in charge of protecting AMERICAN INTERESTS AND AMERICAN INTERESTS ALONE.”
John,
It frightens me that some find it so offensive that other Americans might want the US to put being a better global citizen on a higher priority. That it’s offensive to some that I disagree that only American lives and livelihoods are priceless, where others may fall to our special interests.
Too bad that purely jingositic motives aren’t relevant in today’s world, but so many prescribe to them. We’re a growing global population, in the face of diminishing natural resources to support us, not to mention other problems. So what do we do as we Americans get more outnumbered in the world, John, crush those that would take what they feel is their fair share of what’s left, or even what’s half of their fair share? Is that not imperialistic? How can one country be the “great liberator” that Daniel believes in, but the imperialistic survival-of-the-fittest human rights monstrosity that you want to believe in?
But then again maybe I’m wrong, it’s so hard for me to think right with all that yelling that you’re doing. I’m done with this thread, it’s gone too far off-topic from the original post, and it’s quite clear that no one’s opinion is changing here.
I am such a great commentor…just catching up here…
but first back to comment 20…I think my comment actually bordered a bit on personal insult territory instead of…my normal erudite pointing out bad blogging flaws etc…I’m glad you put it through so I could start a conversation and get you lots of comments/traffic KM…but I apologize for…especially my last comment…the excessive…lack of politeness on my part…
so to be polite and genuine as possible…and to respond to some of the folks who said they agreed with my comment…
My point is that celebrating, not celebrating, deep emotion or no emotion at all over OBL being killed, all responses lack a moral content. None are wrong or right in my opinion…I’m not being relativistic.
What was wrong was using the event, serious as it was, was to use it to turn the focus onto yourself Kevin, especially by providing such a romantic pastiche of your night and near 24 hour log off from social media, and promote your self proclaimed moral superiority from other people.
There were serious thinkers, citizens here and international personally affected by OBL who have had joyous and non-joyous reactions. The vast, vast majority of ink spilled in the last 48 hours whatever the reaction has not been used to hold up one’s reaction to another’s/a different groups, and that comparison used to describe how the author is morally superior and emotionally affected by their disappointment in the moral inferiority of others.
This was not the time or place to make such an event about yourself and whatever superiority you might think you have.
My point was certainly not that celebration was the correct response or that someone not celebrating or disappointed in those who felt joy was incorrect, immoral or in any way less worthy.
Awesomedude – The first two words of this blog are “Kevin Marshall.” It’s not “The Foreign Policy Blog” or “The News Blog.” More than anything, it’s a personal blog, and as such I’m going to write about events from my own perspective and my reaction to them.
I understand your offense, but it’s taken more I think from confusion over what this blog is. In other words, I’d agree and see your point if this were an op-ed piece splashed onto the Opinion page of the Albany Times Union. But it isn’t. If we’re going to talk appropriateness, we need to examine the content in relation to its context. Which is, again, my personal reaction on a personal blog called “Kevin Marshall’s America.”
So if you’re still offended that I used a blog called Kevin Marshall’s America to describe Kevin Marshall’s reaction to an event, I don’t know what on Earth to tell you.
Kev… LOL
Yeah, that pretty much sums up this whole thread.
Pwned.
Actually that picture was taken on movie night(it was JOE DIRT and Hillary was reacting to joe finding his parents,and that was her 18th time seeing it this month!).next week they will find Whitey Bulger and jimmy hoffa.
And the scene in the Diner with the sewage container? Gets her every time.