Kevin Marshall's America
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A recent Heritage Foundation report (What is poverty?) has created a stir and ignited a debate over who we consider and what we mean by the “poor” in this country.
Roger Green, on his blog, weighed in with his assessment:
My initial inclination was not to even to address the issue. After all, it was one of those unwinnable arguments with people of a particular mindset And look at some of the items- Owning a refrigerator? Probably provided by the landlord; ditto the stove and oven. Air conditioning is a necessity in much of the country. TVs are relatively cheap form of information and entertainment. Even people in Afghanistan and sub-Saharan Africa have cell phones. And are these new items or second-hand?
– “Let the Poor Sweat,” 7/21/2011
A very apt point. He goes on to present an even more pointed observation from a colleague of his:
Another data colleague reflected on the interesting responses of who “bought stuff when employed, and now haven’t worked in years and it’s difficult to replace what they have. Where Heritage sees luxurious poor people, I see a desperately sliding middle class. And there’s no substantial research here to prove either view is right.”
The report itself can be interpreted in a myriad of ways depending on how you look at it, particularly since it possesses a pre-determined slant and bias in both concept and execution. Though it attempts to present the data as discovery, it is instead an argument that’s made with cherry-picked square statistics shoved into round pegs. It is also, as Roger points out, willfully omitting various scenarios both here and abroad. Are electronics an apt measurement of poverty? Not if we are measuring against regions that have less access to them (ie a person could be just as poor as someone across an ocean but be more likely to have a specific item because there’s a store near them) and when there are no shortage of destitute regions that have access to things like cell phones.
The real issue, for me, is the hostility and disdain that so many hold for the poor and lower middle class in this country. Regardless of which Presidential Administration you hold accountable, the lower and middle classes are far worse off than they were a decade ago. Yet here we have “reports” such as this which not only attempt to deflect criticism of our economic and domestic social policies, but in a very real way provide a pre-emptive chastising of our nation’s poor.
While some are telling the poor that they’re not poor enough and that they don’t know just how good they have it, there are others who have a more visceral dislike and distrust of them, exhibited through displays of disgust or outright omission of them from their world view.
One local blogger was accused in some local circles of belonging to the latter camp when she tweeted her observations of a visit to the SSA office in Albany:
When I initially saw the tweet I was fairly shocked by the brazenness of it, but it had been through numerous Retweets and as such were devoid of context. When I realized she was referring specifically to one woman (explained through replies to other concerned tweeters after the fact) it made a little more sense and seemed relatively harmless. That’s the general problem with a service like Twitter, where you have 140 characters to make an observation that might require a more careful or exact handling of execution and better choice of words.
It does speak, however, to the fact that there are two Albanys (as there are two Troys) – the Albany that’s presented and represented in the Times Union proper and appropriated onto its own “blogosphere,” and the Albany that includes places like Arbor Hill. In Troy, it’s the North Central neighborhood that is the forgotten city, largely unseen by those whose voices carry furthest in local media. These are areas that are treated with disdain with people vowing never to travel through them without sufficient protection or locked doors. That is, when they’re acknowledging the existence of these areas at all.
We’re faced with some very real choices and dilemmas when it comes to the nation’s poor, but they are obscured by those that continue to universally judge them as a lesser people who earned their situation through karmic retribution or bad work ethic, and who judge them by throwing them onto digital pillories and in reports that tell them that they’re not poor enough to deserve our compassion.
All of this does a great disservice to the cause of reform and economic recovery, but unfortunately, it’s likely to continue until we all grow up a little and become willing to acknowledge and confront the reality of poverty in the United States. Part of that reality is that, yes, some of them go to the SSA office, and some of them own X-Boxes. But that doesn’t mean they have it all that good.
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41 Responses to Perception of poverty: how judgments, denial, and ignorance exacerbate the problem
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Speaking of North Central, I want to give a shout out to The Sanctuary for Independent Media, Collard City Growers, and the Troy Bike Rescue for not only acknowledging that part of Troy, but for all the good work they do.
Chris - Seconded.
I can tell you right now, there weren’t too many reporters, tv or otherwise, floating around Arbor Hill when I was younger. Police either. It would take them at least an hour to respond to a call.
My family lived in Arbor Hill for 8 years. Six of us in a small apartment next door to Skippers Tavern on the corner of Second & Ontario. I can remember my mother digging through the couch for change to buy us milk for cereal.
I didn’t think of myself as poor then, maybe because I was surrounded by people equal to or lower than my family position, I don’t know.
Ditto.
Live simply so that others may simply live. If each of us “uptown” folk were to share just a little of what we have with poverty-stricken individuals, it would go a long way.
I too would like to give shout-outs to the Capital City Rescue Mission and the Interfaith Partnership for the Homeless, both of whom have websites and wishlists for things as simple as toothpaste or other personal care items.
Why not buy one extra next time you go shopping and collect items until you have enough to donate something?
You can’t go wrong when you give to others. I know I sound like a bleeding heart and maybe I am, but I believe that “all that matters is what we do for each other.” (Lewis Carroll said it first)
I’d rather err on the side of kindness.
I think the main problem I’m seeing here is that we’re taking a Heritage Foundation report seriously. HF is a conservative think tank with a long history of slanted “research”. However, I think I can say with cerititude that unfortunately what is expressed in this report is a common, assumption-based and generally ignorant collection of thoughts I hear from people belonging to the general public on a consistent basis.
But I suppose I can only lament that the general public is completely ignorant for so long before I get tired of it myself. My hope is that those of us with high level thinking skills spend our time on more worthwhile endeavors than anything the Heritage Foundation excretes. Maybe next time do a Focus on the Family report about how harlots and the gays are ruining America (LOL).
Yeah, all the neo-cons are already repeating this talking point. I heard Al Roney at WQBK rattle on yesterday afternoon how he thinks any “poor” person in American should be forced by the government to sell their TVs, cell phones, take their kids video games away, etc, because in his mind the poor don’t deserve any of that if they recieve social services. Ironically, while Roney was railing against the poor in America, he couldn’t even tell his audience what the federal income limit is for people in poverty (a family of four is consider improvished if the houshold income is $22,350 or less, in cae you ddin’t know, like the hosts at WQBK).
Yep, that’s fits in with the Tea Party’s wish for smaller government…a bunch of jack-booted thugs going around taking kids video games away because their parents (usally just a parent) are/is on assistance.
It seems the neo-cons want to reduce the poor in America even lower than they are now. And after all, why not? When they do vote, the vote democrat. And when the neo-cons say poor, they really mean inner-city blacks, which is that tweet said in so many words. 10 years of Bush’s tax breaks for the rich have ruined the country, yet their answer to the budget crisis is to continue tax cuts for the rich and cut granny’s health care.
So, this is the neo-con’s/Tea Party’s answer to poverty, more government control, stigmatizing the “poor” and disenfrancising those with the fewest resources who may vote against you.
Jango – I think while we’re at it, we should take away poor people’s food. Because there’s poor people – REAL ones – that are starving to death. You’re not poor unless you’re a corpse!
Or you could do one on ACORN…
Cihan, heaven forbid anyone listen to conservative idea or thought, no… far better we should listen only to left wing extremism and socialist think tanks, right? yeah, I’m with that…
I think the problem is not so much of poor being poor or what constitutes being poor, like owning a cell phone etc. Personally, cell phone monthly costs are outrageous, as Cable TV, Escalades, NIke sneakers,etc, I don’t know how anyone poor justifies a cell phone, PC, cable etc, but may complain about not providing their family with food and essentials. It comes down to people not wanting to become less poor and less dependent. A complete entitlement society from cradle to grave mentanlity, which drives the average middleclass working taxpayer closer to the poverty level. BECAUSE, they are the ones paying the tab. A friend asked an person they know why they weren’t getting married… they have kids etc etc etc, their answer was they’d lose benefits. Is that what America is all about how it’s become…
an article in the TU today about Germany bailing out Greece. The Germans want reassurances that Greeks will start acting like Germans.
Have a work ethic, put in a normal working day, save moeny, etc etc etc… the article stated part of the problem is that Greeks were too use to being taken care of from CRADLE TO GRAVE.
The problem with the poor isn’t being poor, it’s staying poor and the expectations that for some reason, some way, they deserve everything others have worked their whole lives for…
Yeah, I was going to say that taking an organization that founded the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom seriously is a mistake, but others have preceded me.
It sounds more like the “poor” are being criticized for not being “poor” enough. It’s not like we’re expecting these people to walk the streets in rags and shoebox footwear, are we? Or maybe we are, because if that’s the case, then we feel good about ourselves when we drive back to our enclaves on Manning Boulevard.
Trust me, I’ve been through abject poverty. I know first hand about WIC and food stamps and welfare checks and food pantries and the like. I’ve lived it. If you’ve never experienced it, you don’t immediately think that’s the standard. It’s not just the use of these as a means to get through another day, it’s also the stares and the dirty looks and the automatic judgments when you try to pay for something at the grocery store with a few dollars and some paper scrip. The look you get is like, “You’re so poor you have to accept government assistance to get by, you must not have studied in school or you must have had a teen pregnancy or you must have done something that’s below our social strata of superiority. Therefore, you are a lesser person than me.”
And that’s sad.
@ Jakester:
-“Or you could do one on ACORN…”
And is this relevant why?
-“Cihan, heaven forbid anyone listen to conservative idea or thought, no… far better we should listen only to left wing extremism and socialist think tanks, right?”
The point was that Heritage has an agenda, which is cutting the social safety net. So when we analyze their research, we should keep in mind that their findings may be targeted towards meeting this agenda. This is true of any think tank.
-“Personally, cell phone monthly costs are outrageous, as Cable TV, Escalades, NIke sneakers,etc, I don’t know how anyone poor justifies a cell phone, PC, cable etc, but may complain about not providing their family with food and essentials.”
Oh where to begin? Let’s do a few items:
1) Cell phones? Since when did cell phones become a sign of wealth? There are three competing cell phone companies in Somalia for God’s sake.
2) Escalades? Are we really back in 1986 with this Reaganite nonsense about teh poors driving expensive cars?
3) PCs? I don’t think you’re getting how important a PC can be specifically to a poor family. Job applications? Increasingly online. Information about access to government programs? Increasingly online. Communication with family that you can’t afford to just fly out and visit? Increasingly online. Besides which, the price drop in PCs has been drastic – you can buy a desktop for $300.
-“It comes down to people not wanting to become less poor and less dependent. A complete entitlement society from cradle to grave mentanlity, which drives the average middleclass working taxpayer closer to the poverty level.”
The United States has the weakest version of an “entitlement society” in the industrialized world. We have no general state-provided, taxpayer-funded health care system, the least generous welfare and unemployment benefits, etc. We’ve been this way for a long time. We also have the least social mobility of the industrialized world, and it got worse despite further cuts to that safety net you blame (such as the much-touted “welfare reform.”) Here’s a piece from The Economist, certainly not a leftist publication, from 2004 – so you can’t blame Obama: http://www.economist.com/node/3518560
-“A friend asked an person they know why they weren’t getting married… they have kids etc etc etc, their answer was they’d lose benefits.”
Anecdotal stories I heard from a friend about a friend is really how we need to make policy. I heard there was a dude on welfare with like 8 Escalades, 23 cell phones, and 9 flat-screens! A friend of a friend told me!
In all seriousness, your example is nonsensical. Getting married does not cost you benefits for any program that I know of. At worst, your benefits may or may not additionally cover the person you marry. (What are we even talking about here? Health coverage? Life insurance? Tax breaks?)
-“article in the TU today about Germany bailing out Greece. The Germans want reassurances that Greeks will start acting like Germans.
Have a work ethic, put in a normal working day, save moeny, etc etc etc the article stated part of the problem is that Greeks were too use to being taken care of from CRADLE TO GRAVE.”
That’s funny. Compared to Americans, Germans are coddled, Euro-nanny-state slackers. In fact:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30363790/
The issues with Greece are large, structural, and serious. But they have to do not only with the size of the Greek safety net but also financial speculation, political corruption, and fraudulent economic reporting aided and abetted by companies like Goldman Sachs. And so the Greeks, in their lousy current state, are being bailed out not by some heroic John Galt overlords but by those same German, French, Euro-types who are weathering the storm better.
-“The problem with the poor isn’t being poor, it’s staying poor and the expectations that for some reason, some way, they deserve everything others have worked their whole lives for…”
People in America generally have no clue how dependent they are on what “others have worked their whole lives for.” Ascribing this trait merely to the poor is unfair. The title to this chart from a recent academic paper is, “Percentage of program beneficiaries who report that they “have not used a government social program:”
http://journals.cambridge.org/fulltext_content/PPS/PPS8_03/S1537592710002045jra_tab003.gif
Think about that. Over 40% of people who got Pell Grants don’t think the government has done anything for them. Over half whose college loans were government-subsidized. Over 40% who received an unemployment check, 40% who received veteran’s benefits, almost 1/3 who received a disability check!
EVERYONE gets things that others have worked their whole lives for. We also get things that we ourselves have worked our whole lives for. If I lose my job, I get unemployment out of the money I’ve paid into it. If I’m never unemployed for a day in my life, this is a bum rap. But the tradeoff of living in a civilized society is the notion that I may end up paying in for others in order that they may pay in to one day serve me.
That chart sums up the general problem with your comment and the whole political ideology that it follows from. You are not our heroic John Galt overlord, nor is a stock trader who is angry because his bonus is down a bit to maybe pay for health care reforms that allow a developmentally disabled 25-year-old to stay on his parents’ insurance a bit longer (if you want to play the “I know someone who” game, my mom has a co-worker…)
The fact is, we live in an interlocking society made of people who make contributions to it. Yes, some hard-working middle-class man may be angry that a small percentage of his taxes go to TANF benefits, but chances are his grandpa got his college degree through the GI bill (someone else’s taxes) and he got a home mortgage deduction (subsidized by a government that collects taxes from lots of people too poor to own homes.)
Once we get past this 1890s-mentality bullshit about the deserving and undeserving poor, maybe we can move forward a bit, together.
“Cihan, heaven forbid anyone listen to conservative idea or thought, no… far better we should listen only to left wing extremism and socialist think tanks”
My issue here is that HF is a think tank, and that their “studies” are not proper studies. The report reads like a bull-filled persuasive writing paper, and there are logical flaws all over it. For example, as was stated earlier, having a refrigerator in your household does not mean in many cases that you own a refrigerator, or that you are even able to pay the rent in the location that you are living in that does contain a refrigerator.
As for what I think of conservatives? I am proudly a left wing extremist (of course we’re talking about the USA, as I’d be considered fairly reasonable and moderately liberal in other places where the political spectrum isn’t skewed towards looney). But here’s the thing, I’ll be completely honest with you: I don’t believe that conservatives and liberals always have something equally good to say on every issue. More simply stated, there aren’t always two (or more) equally valid opposing sides to every issue. Sorry to break your heart there. I didn’t base the way I feel on issues on emotion (love, greed, patriotism, etc.). My views are rooted in real world information, and in the case of moral issues, they are informed by real world information as well as my own ethical proclivities.
Kevin,
I didn’t see that one! Isn’t it sad that that video is about as hard as any progressive pushes on anything?
It really saddens me that we live in a society where tons of people take organizations such as FotF or HF or Operation Rescue, among countless others, as serious and legitimate organizations.
Cihan – It’s sad, yes; even sadder that Franken doesn’t hit the harder note, which is that the study more specifically cited nuclear versus single-parent families and had nothing to do AT ALL with sexual orientation, regardless of semantics. What the witness for FotF essentially did was provide written testimony saying he had proof that people preferred Fords to Chryslers citing a survey that said Fords performed better than Toyotas.
Um, can I just give a *slow clap* to ObviouslyAStateWorker. That was amazing.
I’m with Leigh but with a slightly faster clap. Kudos ObviouslyAStateWorker
I take it upon myself to start the standing ovation and turn this comments section into the finale of Mr. Holland’s Opus.
“The point was that Heritage has an agenda, which is cutting the social safety net. So when we analyze their research, we should keep in mind that their findings may be targeted towards meeting this agenda. This is true of any think tank.”
And they shouldn’t have an adgenda? Obama and his hand picked socialists, Pelosi, Reid, progressive think tanks, ALL have adgendas, everyone has an agenda, what’s your point?
“1) Cell phones? Since when did cell phones become a sign of wealth? There are three competing cell phone companies in Somalia for God’s sake.”
I get a discount on mine and it’s still $60 a month… sign of “wealth” hardly, it’s a sign you’re not putting THAT money towards
your families needs. Why DO the poor need constant cell connection?
Networking, contact with their investment brokers? REALLY?
“2) Escalades? Are we really back in 1986 with this Reaganite nonsense about the poors driving expensive cars”
What is the real costs of purchasing and maintaining expensive cars,
gas costs? But you just “pooh pooh” it off as “Reganite nonsense” to try to prove your point, you ‘re only showing me you have a socialist spread the wealth adgenda.
“3) PCs?…”
yes, that’s ONE thing it can be used for but probably more along the lines of facebook you tube, musice videos and down loads, surfing the net…wifi and internet access isn’t cheap, even if you can get a PC deal for $300, it’s not money spent on necessities for the family.
And I’m not talking about drugs, cigarettes, tatoos, gold, etc…
I talking food and clothing and books for school.
Your agenda is obvious, redistribution of wealth. The same idea Cuomo and other LIBs had at HUD that causedthe housing/financial crash with the same attitude. EVERYONE shouyld have everything, everyone should own a home. Forget the job, bank account, down payment, CREDIT report, they don’t need that, we’ll even give them $8000 tax credit so they’ll think they can afford it… all that just worked out fine…
the difference is REALITY.
“That’s funny. Compared to Americans, Germans are coddled, Euro-nanny-state slackers.”
Really, compared to which Americans? Certainly not the ones that don’t go to school, cut class and hang out all day? Grow up, slack off, make a job of having 5 kids with different guys just to produce income.
Maybe to me? Stayed in school, worked summer jobs. Grew up work 2 jobs and overtime when I could get it. Saved money, etc etc etc…
“Euro-types who are weathering the storm better.”
Better than whom, Greece? European Countries are in a huge financial downslide… and a huge part of the problem is the costs of socialism and mentality of entitlement. You’re in denial.
“Think about that. Over 40% of people who got Pell Grants don’t think the government has done anything for them.”
What? Pell Grants? You know a lot of welfare people who have Pell Grants, really? That progam is an investment in people and education,
which results in people trying to better THEMSELVES, EXACTLY what I’m talking about, someone stepping away and out of the cradle to grave mentality.
“EVERYONE gets things that others have worked their whole lives for.”
Maybe but not cradle to grave, their whole family…
“If I lose my job, I get unemployment out of the money I’ve paid into it.”
That’s crock of bull$hit, you pay NOTHING into unemployment your employer does.
“Once we get past this 1890s-mentality bullshit about the deserving and undeserving poor, maybe we can move forward a bit, together”
Once we get past the socialist, redistribution of middle class wealth mentality that says we can give everything to everyone by taxing the middle class into poverty and bankupting our grandchildren… people who are willing to do what it takes and want to move forward and build themselves and families a better future, will.
Jakester, if you think that Obama is an extreme liberal or a socialist, you have a very poor view of the political spectrum globally, despite all your claims of having knowledge about Europe.
But it’s good to know that you know all the poor people out there, and know that they have expensive cars and Macs that they’re facebooking with. You exemplify the target group for this kind of pseudo research hoohah, as it plays right into what you already thought.
“That’s crock of bull$hit, you pay NOTHING into unemployment your employer does.”
And that employer pushes a lot of that cost to someone, either reflected in the employee’s wages or salary, or the cost seen by the customer. But you could replace unemployment with Social Security, and the person’s statement would be valid.
“Once we get past the socialist, redistribution of middle class wealth mentality that says we can give everything to everyone by taxing the middle class into poverty and bankupting our grandchildren… people who are willing to do what it takes and want to move forward and build themselves and families a better future, will.”
If you’ll notice, there’s quite a push to be taxing those that fall far above the middle class more, but it’s fought tooth and nail by Republicans who are at the same time selling out the social safety net that protects the middle and lower classes from abject poverty. But I suppose abject poverty is what someone like you wants, since you seem to fundamentally think that people get what they deserve. It’s a myth to think that if every poor person were to just pull on their bootstraps hard enough, then they could lift themselves out of their situation. The just-world fallacy that you, and people who think like you, seem to labor under for the most part, is what I just called it, a fallacy.
“everyone has an agenda, what’s your point?”
His point is that you can’t present agenda-slanted research as plain neutral fact. What’s so hard to get about that?
“Why DO the poor need constant cell connection?
Networking, contact with their investment brokers? REALLY?”
Is that what you use your cell phone for? My Dad’s been unemployed for a year now after working for the same company for 20 years, and he had to get a cellphone, one of the cheap Tracfone models, which cost nowhere near $60 a month, but certainly still qualify as cellphones so that he didn’t miss calls about potential job interviews while going out to apply for jobs. So sort of networking, yes.
“even if you can get a PC deal for $300, it’s not money spent on necessities for the family.”
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think it’s important for, especially kids, to have access to computers at home now. They are a necessity. Aside from the things listed above that computers can be used for, it’s also pretty f-ing important for people to know how to use computers in general to do well in school, get jobs, etc. If my family had to eat Malt-o-Meal for lunch every day for a year to afford it, it would be worth it.
“European Countries are in a huge financial downslide… and a huge part of the problem is the costs of socialism and mentality of entitlement. You’re in denial.”
And we’re doing A-OK over here. You know who’s actually doing quite well for themselves? China. Maybe we should start to follow their model, eh?
“Grow up, slack off, make a job of having 5 kids with different guys just to produce income.”
1. All poor people are exactly like what you say. All lazy, the lot of them! They never work! The people you see working menial and manual labor jobs are comfortably middle class. You’re correct!
2. Or is your rant strangely only geared toward women? Seems like it.
“a lot of welfare people who have Pell Grants, really”
I knew quite a number. I wasn’t on welfare, but my family was definitely below the poverty line growing up. I had a Pell grant and remain incredibly thankful for the opportunities it provided me.
Poor people don’t go to college? Poor people don’t try to better themselves from generation to generation?
I have a strong feeling I’ve been written off as a flake here. I’ll leave the rhetoric to you all and stay away from these kinds of blog posts in the future.
Commie-Flake-Girl
Amy – Absolutely not the case! When truth is spoken, and the right words are used, it leaves nothing left to be said.
No way, Amy! There’s just nothing to argue on the points you make!
Cihan, get a grip on yourself. Obama IS a socialist and is EXTREME when compared to most American presidents, are you starting another post to compare American president to dictators?
“That’s crock of bull$hit, you pay NOTHING into unemployment your employer does.”And that employer pushes a lot of that cost to someone, either reflected in the employee’s wages or salary, or the cost seen by the customer. But you could replace unemployment with Social Security, and the person’s statement would be valid.”
WHAT? UM, We do pay into Social Security… someone made a false statement and I made a true statement and you made a spin statement… so spin away.
I don’t know what planet you live on, but taxing the rich and wealthy corporations are being fought right here in NYS by Andrew Cuomo AND by every other liberal behind closed doors… head in the sand much?
Fallacy or reality. People willing to put forth the effort and TRY deserve help. Those that don’t, deserve the consequence…
Eric… nothign hard to get about that. as there’s nothing to get about me TRYING to make the point that you don’t get, there’s nothing wrong with having agendas, EVERYONE does.
I think your father may fall into the unemployed group, harldy poor and hardly trying to get all he can from the system…
China, yes, doing pretty well in some areas once Bill Clinton opened up capitalism and trade with them and let his cronies sell them our top defense supercomputers… hardly doing well in the HUMAN RIGHTS department though, ya think? huh?
Ericm strangely the last part of your rant I agree with… I’m all for helping people get an education. YOU missed that I guess.
I grew up lower middle class too, student loans etc etc etc… worried about shoes for us and wore hand me downs, worked with my fathers construction company when I was 10. Dig foundation footings when I was 13 by hand… if I had Sunday off, that was our vacation, so, welcome to the real world.
“Cihan, get a grip on yourself. Obama IS a socialist and is EXTREME when compared to most American presidents, are you starting another post to compare American president to dictators?”
Extreme liberal according to who? According for Fox News? According to other political pundits and bloggers? How do you rate such extremity, what scale do you weigh it on? Because most supporters of the DREAM Act and positive immigration reform are certainly not happy at how moderate/conservative Obama has been. Environmentalists aren’t pleased either. Neither are the human rights activists that wanted him to work against more of the post 9/11 defense bullshit entrenched under the Bush Administration. I guess he’s an extremist because he had the audacity to believe that our health care system was righteously completely screwed up and not wanting to extend deficit increasing tax breaks for the rich. If you could pull your head out of where you spend the bulk of your time raging on, maybe you’d see that the picture is a bit bigger than the few slivers you focus upon. And I repeat, Obama is an extremist only in the dreams of conservative pundits and those that eat their words up.
“Fallacy or reality. People willing to put forth the effort and TRY deserve help. Those that don’t, deserve the consequence…
”
Oh ellipses, what suspense! What do they deserve? Do they deserve to die, starve, live in filth? Should we ship them off to prison?
I’d looooove to see what guidelines you’d come up in order to judge the moral character and trying-ness of the average poor person. That worked wonderfully for Welfare Reform under Clinton.
I’ll admit it’s frustrating to meet someone that receives benefits that takes advantage of the system. But neither you, nor I, nor anyone has the power or the omniscience to determine who is really using the system and who is not in the vast bulk of instances. That’s the point of having a social safety net. It’s a net, it’s there, and if you fall down so low that you hit it, you hit it, regardless of whether you are trying or not trying according to someone’s opinion of what trying is.
I recommend you read the Working Poor, Invisible in America, by David Shipler, if you truly think that the poor have it so good and it’s just so simple to try and escape the safety net.
So because the MOST extreme people aren’t happy that Obama can’t carry out his plans to the “T” because of republicans, conservatives, and reality, you’re saying that makes him not a socialist or the most extreme president the US has had… really?
No nothing that extreme, living with you would probably sufice what they deserve.
YOu act like there’s no welfare fraud when it’s costing the country billions.
You act like there’s no generational welfare families and no welfare queens… wake up
“YOu act like there’s no welfare fraud when it’s costing the country billions.
You act like there’s no generational welfare families and no welfare queens… wake up”
No one here is acting like that. YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP. In fact, Cihan says:
“I’ll admit it’s frustrating to meet someone that receives benefits that takes advantage of the system. But neither you, nor I, nor anyone has the power or the omniscience to determine who is really using the system and who is not in the vast bulk of instances.”
He is literally saying here, “There is welfare fraud.” But he’s also saying that the system needs to exist regardless, for those who are not fraudsters. The question is, is it worth starving children to cut down on fraud, or is it worth putting up with fraud to keep kids from starving? And you’re fine with starving children.
LOL Ok, so the environmentalists and human rights activists are the most extreme element of political activity in the USA? I’d hope you mean just on the liberal side of things, but even that is totally and amazingly incorrect. What color was that Kool-Aid anyway, red white and blue? The fact of the matter still stands is that Obama is not an extremist by any sense of the word, and likely never will be. You will not find an educated and intelligent political scientist not shilling for a think tank that will sell that crock of shit.
Wake up from what exactly, you can’t even appear to read what I said:
“I’ll admit it’s frustrating to meet someone that receives benefits that takes advantage of the system. But neither you, nor I, nor anyone has the power or the omniscience to determine who is really using the system and who is not in the vast bulk of instances.”
This comment clearly shows that I do think that there is abuse in the system, but that I don’t believe that most people abuse it to nearly the degree that you’ve decided they do. But also, that managing something like a social safety net to the utter degree of detail that you would like to see, in order to determine precise worthiness of every individual, would cost an exorbitant amount of money and quickly become unmanageable. Also I can’t believe you said welfare queen, another one of the great white American myths.
But I bid you adieu Jakester for now, since you have little in the way of fact and much in the way of raging opinion. I suggest you try a student of current events and history by attempting taking your bias and personal stake in the matter out of it, you might be surprised at what you actually learn. Although that’s a tall order I suspect you have no interest in filling, since you think a think tank that misconstrues information is coolio as long as they’re aligned with your political beliefs.
*study, not student
Eric, typical lib response, same as if you didn’t vote for Obama you’re a racist. Much like Hillary’s feeble attempts at healthcare with her “it’s for the childern” war cry that didn’t even work on her fellow party members.
Of course there should be a wefare system as a helping hand, not a perpetual, generational handout.
It should be tightly regulated and include drug testing, work programs and family planning classes that begin in high school.
Why is it that MOST people know enough not to have kids/numerous with no means of support while generalational welfare is rampant?
So there’s notign in between it’s either reform welfare or stave kids?
Really? If you’re so deeply concerned about the kids, why aren’t you donating you earnings and dedicating your life to improve their live.
Much the same question and thoughts I have about rich liberals who don’t pay their taxes and find/use every loophole to evade taxes, but keep digging deeper and deeper into middle class pockets.
Bye Cihan, I can say much the same about you… we disagree so you must be correct…
parting comment: The USA can not afford to continue to support everyone in the world and country that believes they should be supported from cradle to grave. Especially, when both major parties are run and lobbied by the rich, Soros etc, wealthy corporations, wealthy politicians and are lobbyists working for THRIT best interests. The middle class can not carry the brunt of the expense for subsidizing the world. I am and will always be, totally opposed to redistribution of middle class wealth.
“So there’s notign in between it’s either reform welfare or stave kids?”
I was just trying to take things to the accusatory extremes that you were (“You act like there’s no welfare fraud…”). Your whole bit so far has struck me as, “Get a job, you lazy bums, we’re not giving you welfare.” What do you see as between reform welfare and starve kids? You either keep the system as is, try to fix or modify it (and if that’s the case, we have to get past just saying the words “Welfare reform,” and get down the near-impossible brass tacks of actually doing it), or get rid of it. “Welfare reform,” is an easy thing to say on campaign trails, but it’s a different matter to sit down with different agencies and say, “What’s feasible?” How do YOU distinguish from the poor you feel are deserving, and the poor from which you’d withdraw assistance? So far, what we’ve heard is that if someone has a computer or a phone, or if their parents were on welfare, or they can’t pass a drug test, you’re taking their support programs away.
“If you’re so deeply concerned about the kids, why aren’t you donating you earnings and dedicating your life to improve their live.”
Don’t forget that I’m a mostly-anonymous person in a comments section of a blog. I’ve donated a substantial part of my earnings and time over the years to underprivileged kids, and so has my wife. I’ve also supported and will continue to support through time and money programs that educate those below the poverty line on financial planning, computer skills, tradecraft, and yes, family planning.
In the part of the country where I grew up, a place where poverty is rampant, family planning is difficult to teach in schools because people of a certain ideology…let’s call them conservatives with a little C…push an abstinence-only policy when it comes to sex-ed in public education and limit access to birth control. And work programs are great if there are jobs available.
Okay Eric, so look at it from this angle… If I make 75K a year and they end up after all is said and done taking 50 to 60% in all types of taxes so that others can have their “stuff” when exactly do YOU think enough is enough… when?
Sure wefare reform is tough and weeding out fraud is tough but it’s better in my opinion to try than let it all slide to the tune of billions. The well is going to run dry, so they can just print up some worthless money. We need imigration reform too, it’s got to start somewhere.
Jakester,
Note that you keep harping on the middle class, when I advocated for raising taxes on the wealthy (as in, removing current tax cuts that are in place at least). Your position is more compelling when you focus on the middle class, but I haven’t seen a single person advocate taxing the middle class any more.
A disgusting amount of the current American debt comes from the Bush era tax cuts, and then the continuation of them pushed by Boehner and company. Those tax cuts by far favor the wealthy. Is your memory so short jakester, aren’t you a grown man with children and perhaps grandchildren? The USA didn’t have this debt or this level of taxation in the 90s, but war and tax cuts in the 00s shot it through the roof. But guess what, there was still Welfare and just about all the same benefits in existence in the 90s as well, although more people are on them now because of economic hardship. If anything will bankrupt us, it’s endless war and tax cuts for the wealthy, followed by unreasonably growing medical costs for the elderly as the baby boomers age and the USA government does nothing to control the absurd costs associated with medical treatment.
I think if you’re so hurt about taxes, you should take a look at the real culprits, and stop scapegoating the poor. But that’s the real conservative conundrum in this country, isn’t it? In general, I see conservatives and conservative commentators whining about this or that, and then at the same time defend the corporations and monied interests that sent this nation rolling down a hill. They have the audacity to blame Obama, when anyone with any sense of anything would understand that even if Obama was the WORST PRESIDENT EVAR (or whatever the claim), there’s no way he could have caused the vast bulk of the current problems facing the country in a mere two or so years. But somehow, commentators were blaming everything on Obama starting around 6 months after his term. I’d also call it a farce to claim that it’s liberal politicians in particular that sent us rolling either. I’m not big fan of politicians of either party, the Republicans are off the deep end, and most Democrats are quite moderate. For someone that is truly liberal, there are few choices in terms of representation.
Or perhaps you’re objectivist, and you’d oppose letting the poor live even the semblance of a 1st world life even if you were getting taxed less. Who knows?
Simple question: If I make 75K a year and they end up, after all is said and done, taking 50 to 60% in all types of taxes so that others can have their “stuff”, when exactly do YOU think enough is enough… when? How much should the government be able to TAKE of my money?
You’re very interesting. Never did I say there were not problems with taxes, in fact I keep saying that there are problems with taxing the middle class and undertaxing the wealthy. But somehow you think that it’s such a compelling argument that you’ll repeat it to make a point that I’m not arguing with.
But my conclusion, when taxes are rough, is not to strip out the social safety net. Why aren’t you on here complaining just as hard that the endless wars this country wages, and decadent “defense” depending is bankrupting you and your family? Is that because you lurve the American flag but can’t stand the poor and uneducated?
But it’s good to see that this is a chip on your block, and you’re arguing with only yourself as an important player in the scenarios you run through your head. I’m not particularly looking forward to being what I would consider overtaxed, and as unfortunate as that is, I’m still not ever going to advocate stripping out the social safety net. A common adage is that the US has first world tax rates, but near third world services. Few if any places have the kind of tax rates we have here, and lack things like universal healthcare or other social goods. Your problems Jakester, are not caused by poor people with fridges and xboxes, you’d do well to understand that. But at this point you’re just repeating yourself
And if it weren’t for the USA Military, YOU and I wouldn’t be here
jakester – NOBODY IS SAYING OTHERWISE! Good Lord, man. Argue the things that are actually said.
“Why aren’t you on here complaining just as hard that the endless wars this country wages, and decadent “defense” depending (SPENDING, maybe?) is bankrupting you and your family?”
Kevin, this is what I was responding to…
Something that is often overlooked in the talking points put out by a study done through a known conservative think tank are the systematic causes of generational poverty. ‘Rising above one’s circumstances’ is not a matter of morality or personal strength. There is such a thing as a cultural of poverty, reinforced by nutrition, healthcare, education, prenatal care, safety of housing, etc. As the gap grows between the top 1% and the middle class, it is no wonder that the definition of poverty in the US is becoming more and more blurred, and one has to ask the source of the funding of a study in order to determine the accuracy of its data.
I pose this question: You are poor, as generations of your family have been before you, with no cultural memory of a life outside of poverty. You have just $14 in cash, and that $14 will let you take your child out for a special treat. Even if it’s to a place with poor nutritional content that will let them eat in an air conditioned space with a toy with their meal in the bargain and a playground in the building, would you do it? If you’re a single mom, with nothing in the world, and you have a chance to have your nails done, to feel special for a moment, would you do it? If you have next to nothing, but you can dress yourself and your children in clean clothes, well pressed, will you all have a better chance of pulling yourself out of poverty, based solely on the way the world will treat you and your children, and how you that treatment will make them feel?
If it will cost your family less to have a cell phone than a land line, pay as you go instead of a monthly plan that can be turned on and off, would you do it?
Kevin, well done.