Kevin Marshall's America
Somewhat connected in yesterday’s post about things you can’t call yourself.
Ever since I was in High School, I have seen many – including myself – label under the misapprehension of being the overlooked “nice guy.”
“Why doesn’t this girl like me?” we’d ask. “I’m a nice guy, certainly nicer than the guys she goes for.”
Conventional wisdom is that the girls go for the jerks, and the rest of us are left as victims of our own virtues, doomed to sit around and wait for one of the objects of our affections to wise up and realize the error of their ways and how much they’re missing out.
Except that’s the most shallow, pathetic, self-centered, and deluded outlook you can have. Who are you, and what exactly puts you on a pedestal and makes you superior to other men (or women) around you?
I started thinking on this yesterday when I was sent a link to the blog “Failbook” (highlighting the various misadventures of the crazy and the dumb on Facebook). The following was posted as a screen capture. Zoey, High School crush of Toby, complains about guys being jerks. Toby goes on a screed that makes him a folk hero of sorts:
What we’re supposed to take away from it is that, wow, girls can often talk about how mean and heartless guys are, but they’re every bit as bad, if not worse.
…no. No no no.
Firstly, no matter what the past may have been between the two, the dude in this example is highjacking someone else’s problems to make it about himself. If one needs wonder why Toby’s persistence hasn’t paid off, the culmination of his frustration clearly lays out the reason why: he does not, despite pretenses and obsession, know very much about her nor does he care enough to not make everything that she does about himself.
Her pain is inconsequential. His is paramount.
He lays out three years of unrequited affections, though it might be more apt to call it not taking a damn hint. Or, in some cases, borderline harassment. In year 8, Zoey clearly wanted nothing to do with Toby. So then he sent her candy and roses and “tried to be romantic,” which is a super creepy thing to say to a girl that isn’t your girlfriend and has made it clear she doesn’t want anything to do with you. In year 9, he still couldn’t take a hint. In year 10…well, you get the picture.
Now, I’m sure this girl has committed some wrongs in this situation. If we take Toby at face value, then to some extent he’s been taken advantage of in the past, which is wrong. But what makes Toby “the nice guy?”
The answer? Nothing, because he’s not. Instead, he suffers from what I call Nice Guy Syndrome.
Nice Guy Syndrome affects dudes who obsess over women (or a specific woman). The person suffering from it will tell people that he just doesn’t get it, because he’s such a nice guy. Except nothing that the guy does is selfless. All the supposed nice guy things he does – the candy, the roses, the badgering, the begging and the pleading – aren’t favors meant to make her happy, or make her smile. They’re all actions committed with the prerequisite that he gets something in return, in particular the physical affections of his obsession.
As a result, dudes who suffer from Nice Guy Syndrome engage in deluded, self-centered behavior exacerbated by an incessant victim complex. They’ll say and do things to try to evoke pity from others, but when you scratch past the surface you find that there’s no great injustice done other than the person deigning to say “no” to them.
To those who suffer, try this: if someone says they’re not interested, take them at their word. If you’re one of those that must be persistent, then by all means, stick around and be a friend. But that doesn’t mean continually asking them out over and over again only to get a no, sending flowers and candy, and engaging in various other clueless behaviors that strain the relationship and make the other party develop animosity towards you.
Most importantly, remember this one thing: the Universe, and the person you’re crushing on, owes you nothing. You do not deserve this person simply because you decide you want to get in his or her pants.
Try a little empathy for a change. Being the nice guy is impossible without it.
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21 Responses to Diagnosing NGS: Nice guy syndrome
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STALK ME
It all comes down to people confusing kindness for weakness.
I have been guilty of having NGS in the past….I admit it. With age comes a little wisom and self awareness. If you have NGS, then any guy who actually GETS a girl, is by default, an a-hole.
Sure there a some women out there who take advantage of the “nice guys”….or as I used to be “desparate to please her, guys”….but mostly, if she says, “let’s just be friends”..take the hint and move on.
I got lucky, my wife is way out of my league, and she likes me,whether I am the “nice guy” or not….
Yeah. ‘Wuthering Heights’ sucked.
NGS is perhaps my least favorite quality in some of my gentlemen friends. (Though I think most of them have grown out of it by now. It was more a high school/college problem)
Unlike Toby, most guys who suffer from NGS never make a move on the poor girl. They assume oogling her, writing secret poetry and listening to her weep about other men makes them entitled to her by default.
Make a move, guys. Girls can be dense too.
Nice guys try to appeal to a woman logically (buy her this -> get x, do/agree w/everything she says -> get y) like it’s a step-by-step process; instead of emotionally, which is a very “in the moment” realm where women live; which can also b…e deduced to a step-by-step process, but it’s not the lock and key model that nice guys subscribe to (buy drink -> get girl; ironically, being polite -> being forgotten). But there’s a difference between BEING chivalrous and ACTING it.
Better off breaking the social mould; better off walking the fine line of being a dick and fun, at least she’ll remember you. “I’ll buy you a drink, but first, what would you make me if I came over dinner? And don’t say pasta, you’re better than that.”
Nice guys are deluded into thinking that because they like this “1 girl” it makes them better than the guys who are w/100, but the problem is they (nice guys) don’t actually like her, and the reality is the “jerks” like who they are and are selective about who they settle down with. Something most people can’t wrap there heads around.
Nice guys lust for the value they’ve placed on her. They don’t actually know what makes her tick, or what she wanted to be when she 7, or the first time she cried, how she feels about her family, or if she’s ever met anyone that she knew she’d know forever. Like you said, they’re really only concerned with what she can do for them. The jerks may be as well, but at least they can answer the important questions about her.
But what do I know, I’m a D-bag, not a doctor.
Kevin, can you elaborate a little more on this comment?! “All the supposed nice guy things he does – the candy, the roses, the badgering, the begging and the pleading – aren’t favors meant to make her happy, or make her smile. They’re all actions committed with the prerequisite that he gets something in return, in particular the physical affections of his obsession.” I don’t agree with all of his methods because he seems kind of warped/obsessed, but why isn’t giving roses/candy to someone reason enough to make someone else happy?! Isn’t there always alternative motive whether it be immediate or down the road for both genders?!
John – Because he’s warped and obsessed. As indicated in what you quoted, I was speaking of specifically this instance.
The word nice has many adjectives that decribe it: foolish, wanton, dissolute, coy, reticent, finicky, refined, scrupulous, pleasing, agreeable, trivial, inappropriate, virtuous. So if someone calls you a “Nice Guy”, take it as a insult and a compliment at the same time. Better to avoid this word entirely, or you’ll have a nice day.
It bothers me when guys confuse “being a jerk” with being direct and confident. Sure, some chicks *do* go for jerks, but any chick willing to put up with legitimately abysmal behavior needs to grow up and isn’t really worth someone’s time of day at that point.
Girls are often ‘victims’ of this mentality too: “I’d do anything-and-everything for them, so why do they waste their time on chicks who treat them poorly?” At the basis of it, I feel like we are humans are prone to going after people who can’t really appreciate us. We all want to be the best thing our significant other has ever had, so pining after someone who only dates people we consider worthless makes us feel like a winner by comparison. Or something.
Spot. On. While I knew a few “nice guys” that couldn’t catch a break, they didn’t wallow in it or whine and eventually ended up with equally “nice girls.”
Girls also can have NGS. They can often be seen in their natural environment standing next to some guy at the bar with a hunted expression on his face searching for his friends to bail him out while she rattles on completely missing all signals that this guy isn’t interested. Then they go cry to their cats/dogs/sisters with children about how she doesn’t understand why they never call…
Thank you for writing this Kevin. Obsession is not love and it certainly is not nice. It is a very timely commentary on some of the misperceptions of dating, especially since February is Teen Dating Violence Awareness Month. Check out loveisrespect.org for more info.
You did a good job explaining this issue. I can think of a couple instances in which suitors made a move on me, and I politely turned them down. Instead of accepting the rejection, they tried different methods, or simply asked again later. It was uncomfortable. It’s difficult and a bit stressful to turn someone down in the first place. Having to say “no” again is even more annoying. You’re right – it’s selfish of the suitor to badger/harass a girl like that, NOT nice.
If a man is nice, but a woman doesn’t like him, that doesn’t mean she doesn’t like niceness. She most likely just doesn’t like that particular man. The man needs to move on.
That article is not a description of nice guy syndrome Kevin.That person needs professional help.
And i hope for his sake, as well as the girl that he gets it.
There’s also the inevitable problem that the target of the NG’s affection is usually the most out-of-his league girl, who, through some sort of magic nice spell, he will wind up winning. Thanks alot, 1986’s Lucas.
Can we all at least agree that Mr. R— is a highly irresponsible teacher?
“Except nothing that the guy does is selfless. All the supposed nice guy things he does – the candy, the roses, the badgering, the begging and the pleading – aren’t favors meant to make her happy, or make her smile. They’re all actions committed with the prerequisite that he gets something in return, in particular the physical affections of his obsession.”
Really? Truly altruistic individuals are few and far in between. I’m going to quote Kat Williams on this one…
-“Women don’t like it when a man buy ‘em a drink, and then follow ‘em all over the club all night.”
-“Clap if you hate that, women, do you hate that?”
-[Applause and cheering] “see, once again, this is just a simple misunderstanding.”
-“I am not following you,I am following my $7 investment in our relationship.”
-“Now if you don’t want the drink, don’t take my investment and run off with it.'”
In my opinion, the only thing Toby did wrong was waste so much time and energy chasing a woman who wanted nothing to do with him. How hard would it have been for Zoey to say “Toby, I’m just not into you”? She could have saved him time and money.
I first heard about Nice Guy Syndrome a few years ago via this website – http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
It’s a sucky situation for everyone involved.
I’ve found that a lot of guys who claim the Nice Guy mantle aren’t particularly nice anyway. I’ve found that these guys are just passive aggressives. They can be just as disdainful or jerk-y as anyone, but they aren’t upfront about it.
How much could Toby have really cared about Zoey if he willfully and blindly pursued her despite what seems to be stark demonstrations of disinterest? Hey baby, what you want doesn’t matter, because I *am* the perfect guy for you. It’s like that sort of creepy Taylor Swift song, You Belong to Me. She basically complains that this super perfect guy is dating some girl that isn’t her, and that’s just because he doesn’t know what’s best for him. Sure, sometimes these sorts of things actually wind up being the case, but you’ll never know because you can’t be inside the other person’s head.
This is far and away my favorite treatise on nice guys.
I’m four months late (this should surprise no one, really) but reading this, and all of the accompanying links, keeps bringing up 80’s movies in my mind. 80’s movies have warped us developmentally to think that the nice guy gets the girl, as long as he’s persistent enough (or vice-versa, gender-wise), and that the girl (or guy) suddenly, one day, opens his or her eyes and realizes “hey! my BFF was my soulmate ALL ALONG!” This can make for some crazy stalkertime behavior when the expected outcome doesn’t materialize, and some serious hurt feelings. “But…this is what I was PROMISED! Movies SAID SO!”
I need a chunk of dedicated time, and not time stolen from my employer in-between assignments, to dedicate to this, but I need to expand this into a blog post. People need to be educated to the fact that THIS DOES NOT WORK. (And can kind of lead to restraining orders. Just saying.)
There’s being a nice guy and there’s wimpy. I think online dating (advertised on TV) are a good way for all people to get together. It makes sense that someone decides they like the real you and wants to meet for an hour or two.